LOL! I am beginning to wonder if you actually have read the New Testament. One of the most prominent themes of Scriptures is that men can fall away and they must continue to persevere to the very end - not the fantasy of "once saved always saved". If a person ACTUALLY read the following, tell me how they would STILL come up with OSAS?
Because lawlessness shall abound, the charity of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come. Mat 24:12-14
And if thy hand causes thee to fall, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into life maimed than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that can never be quenched, where their worm does not die, and the fire is never quenched. Mark 9:43-44
Those on the rock [are] those that when they hear, receive the word with joy, but these have no root, who for a while believe and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13
He who does not abide in me shall be cast forth as an [unsound] branch and shall wither, and they are gathered and cast into the fire and are burned. John 15:6
I know this, that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30Also from among your own selves, men shall arise, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after themselves. Acts 20:29-30
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13For if ye live according to the flesh, ye shall die; Rom 8:12-13
Do not be highminded, but fear that if God did not forgive the natural branches, neither shall he forgive thee. Behold, therefore, the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness if thou continue in [his] goodness; otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Rom 10:20-22
Know ye not that the unjust shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals nor thieves nor covetous nor drunkards nor revilers nor extortioners shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor 6:9-10
Neither let us tempt the Christ, as some of them also tempted and perished by the serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured and perished by the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them as types, and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. Therefore let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall 1 Cor 10:9-12
I therefore so run, not as unto an uncertain thing; so I fight, not as one that beats the air; but I keep my body under, and bring [it] into subjection, lest preaching to others, I myself should become reprobate. 1 Cor 9:26-27
lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and I would have to mourn over many who have sinned already and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed… Examine yourselves whether ye are in the faith; prove your own selves. Do ye not know your own selves if Jesus Christ is in you? Unless ye are reprobates 2 Cor 12:21, 13:5
Now, having known God, or rather being known of God, how do ye turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, in which ye desire again to be in bondage? Gal 4:9
Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ has made us free and do not be entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Gal 5:1
And you, that were in another time alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now he has reconciled [you] in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreproveable in his sight if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled and [are] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard Col 1:21-23
It is in order then, brethren, that we beseech and exhort [you] in the Lord Jesus, that in the manner ye were taught of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, [so] ye would continue to grow. For ye already know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For the will of God is your sanctification, that ye should separate [yourselves] from fornication, that every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honesty, not with affection of lust, as the Gentiles who do not know God, That no one oppress and defraud his brother in [any] matter because the Lord [is] the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. For God has not called us unto uncleanness, but unto sanctification. He therefore that despises [us], does not despise man, but God, who has also given unto us his Holy Spirit. 1 Thes 4:1-8
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to saving health through the sanctification of the Spirit and faith in [the] truth, unto which he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast and retain the doctrine which ye have been taught, whether by word or our epistle. 2 Thes 2:13-15
Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, listening to spirits of error and doctrines of demons; that in hypocrisy shall speak lies; having their conscience seared as with a hot iron; 1 Tim 4:1
I desire therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, govern the house, giving no occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. For some are already turned back after Satan. 1 Tim 5:14-15
[This is] a faithful word: That if we are dead with [him], we shall also live with [him]; if we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]; if we deny [him], he also will deny us. 2 Tim 2:11-12
They profess that they know God, but in works they deny [him], being abominable and rebellious and reprobate unto every good work.: Titus 1:16
I may know him and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death, 11if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12Not as though I had already attained [it], either were already perfect, but I follow after, if I may lay hold of that for which I have also been laid hold of by the Christ, Jesus. 13Brethren, I do not reckon to have laid hold of [it] yet, but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind and extending myself unto those things which are ahead, 14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:10-14
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unfaithfulness, to depart from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called. Today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end; while it is said, Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some of those that came out of Egypt with Moses, when they had heard, did provoke; howbeit not all. But with whom was he indignant forty years? [Was it] not with those that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness? And to whom he swore that they should not enter into his rest, but to those that disobeyed? So we see that they could not enter in because of [their] unbelief: Heb 3:12-18
But we desire that each one of you show the same diligence until the end for the fulfillment of [your] hope, that ye not become slothful, but imitators of those who by faith and patience inherit the promises. Heb 6:11-12
For if we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful hope of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Heb 10:26-27
Do not lose, therefore, this your confidence, which has great recompense of reward; 36for patience is necessary, so that after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come and will not tarry. 38Now the just shall live by faith, but if [any man] draws back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. Heb 10:35-39
For judgment without mercy shall be done unto the one that has showed no mercy; and mercy boasts against judgment. My brethren, What shall it profit though someone says [that] they have faith and do not have works? Shall faith be able to save them? James 2:13-14
For it is time that the judgment begins from the house of God; and if [it] first [begins] with us, what shall the end [be] of those that do not obey the gospel of God? And if the righteous are saved with difficulty, where shall the unfaithful and the sinner appear? 1 Peter 4:17-18
These are spots and blemishes, who eat [together] with you, while at the same time they revel in their deceit, having their eyes full of adultery, and not knowing [how] to cease from sin, baiting unstable souls, having their heart exercised in covetous practices; cursed sons, who forsaking the right way have erred, having followed the way of Balaam [the son] of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness, and was rebuked for his iniquity; a dumb animal accustomed to a yoke (upon which he was seated), speaking with man's voice, hindered the madness of the prophet. These are wells without water, clouds that are brought by [a] whirlwind, to whom gross darkness is reserved for ever. For speaking arrogant words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, [through much] wantonness, those that were clean escaped from those who converse in error, promising them liberty, being they themselves the servants of corruption: for he who is overcome by someone is subject to bondage by the one that overcame him. Certainly, if having separated themselves from the contaminations of the world, by the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they again entangle themselves therein and are overcome, their latter end is made worse for them than the beginnings. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog returns unto his own vomit, and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Peter 2:14-22
Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. For if that which ye have heard from the beginning shall abide in you, ye also shall [continue to] abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he has promised us, [even] eternal life. These [things] I have written unto you concerning those that seduce you. 1 John 2:24-26
Look to yourselves, that we not lose those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a fulfilled reward. Whosoever rebels and does not abide in the doctrine of the Christ, does not have God 2 John 8-9
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that does good is of God, but he that does evil has not seen God. 3 John 11
I will, therefore, remind you, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those that did not believe. Jude 5
Bethou faithful unto death, and I will give thee the crown of life. Rev 2:10
Thou hast a few persons also in Sardis who have not defiled their garments, and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. He that overcomes shall likewise be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. Rev 3:4-6
This is from ALMOST EVERY book of the New Testament. Either you haven't read it, or you read over such verses and ignore them. Thus, you have a set of beliefs that you twist the Bible to fit your pattern. ALL people who have fallen away from the Catholic Church have done this, from Aruis and the Gnostics to the currently multipling sects of Protestantism. If man was not meant to know God's revelation in truth, then Christ made a mistake that the US Constitution did not fail to make - a living organization that could interpret the written rule for people of today.
I don't see any point in going further on these arguments. You have clearly chosen to reject much of what the Bible says - while holding to Sola Scriptura! I have found your arguments quite frustrating and having no common sense - Scriptures clearly reject much of what you say...
Can faith [without works] SAVE him?" NO! James 2:14
Except to Protestants, this seems pretty darn clear...
God bless
Bingo.
"Can faith [without works] SAVE him?" NO! James 2:14
Except to Protestants, this seems pretty darn clear..."
Paul has a different take on this:
Eph 1:11 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."
He says after one trusts, not works and not trusts and works, that you are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the redemption of the purchased possession. In Romans 8 Paul says nothing nor any other creature can separate us from Him, which includes ourselves. That seems pretty clear to anyone familiar with the whole New Testament except those of course who have made works based and professional confession part of their tradition.
Oh please. Every verse is either taken out of context or is poorly interpreted. I would simply point you to the following verse:
If the Lord prayed for Simon that his faith would not fail, don't you think He would pray for us as well?
If your concerned that Mary will not ask the Lord to ensure your faith not fail you, why not ask the Lord.
Now, Abraham did not work for his righteousness, his works showed it.
And quoting James 2:14 out of context doesn't change the truth of justification by faith alone in Christ alone.
The entire chapter 2 of James is about the Christian responsibilty to show his faith by his works, not that his works save him from eternal damnation.
Note the use of the word 'profit'.
Without God's love controlling the Christian (1Jn.3:16-17) there is no profit for the Christian, neither in giving everything (1Cor.13:3) or in giving nothing (James.2:15-16) and he will be judged both in time (Heb.12:6-7, 1Jn5:16) and at the Judgement seat of Christ (1Cor.3:13-15)
Since I have only said it a hundred times, you should know by now that I follow "Perseverance of the Saints", not the plain meaning of OSAS. However, I have also come to learn that some people who proclaim OSAS actually interpret it as POTS. So while their view is correct, it makes it more difficult to use in a debate. In any event, Paul is clear that we are not to go on sinning. Nobody here believes otherwise.
Those on the rock [are] those that when they hear, receive the word with joy, but these have no root, who for a while believe and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13
A "belief" with no root is not a true belief, it is a false belief. Luke is talking about people who have a false faith, NOT a true faith that went away.
I know this, that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30Also from among your own selves, men shall arise, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after themselves. Acts 20:29-30
Do you say that Judas had true faith at one time, but simply "fell away"? If you say 'yes', then you also have to believe that when satan entered into Judas, satan kicked out the Holy Spirit that lives within all true believers. Is that what happened?
They profess that they know God, but in works they deny [him], being abominable and rebellious and reprobate unto every good work.: Titus 1:16
Yes, the false believer is mentioned many times in scripture. These people never had true faith to begin with.
For judgment without mercy shall be done unto the one that has showed no mercy; and mercy boasts against judgment. My brethren, What shall it profit though someone says [that] they have faith and do not have works? Shall faith be able to save them? James 2:13-14
Paul and James do appear to take different approaches to this issue. But all is still well. James refers again to someone who "says" he has faith, a person with a false faith. Works are fruits of a true faith, not something totally independent of faith. The last sentence is really "Shall [SUCH FALSE] faith be able to save them?". Obviously not.
...Certainly, if having separated themselves from the contaminations of the world, by the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they again entangle themselves therein and are overcome, their latter end is made worse for them than the beginnings. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog returns unto his own vomit, and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Peter 2:[20]-22
This is more of the same thing. Some had professed to having faith, but did not really have it. Verse 22 shows this. If the "dog" and the "sow" return to what they were, then they were never changed, never regenerated. If they had true faith, they would have been changed into a new creation. They would no longer be a "dog" or a "sow".
Look to yourselves, that we not lose those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a fulfilled reward. Whosoever rebels and does not abide in the doctrine of the Christ, does not have God 2 John 8-9
Is your point that John is saying that we should rely on ourselves for perseverance?
This is from ALMOST EVERY book of the New Testament. Either you haven't read it, or you read over such verses and ignore them. Thus, you have a set of beliefs that you twist the Bible to fit your pattern.
All of these verses fit just fine to me. They distinguish between true faith and a false faith, and confirm that God intends His elect to persevere. They will. I would disagree with what you appear to be saying and say that these verses are NOT meant to glorify men, and their brave free will decisions to choose to persevere. They show us what a true believer looks like, just like Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.
If man was not meant to know God's revelation in truth, then Christ made a mistake that the US Constitution did not fail to make - a living organization that could interpret the written rule for people of today.
We agree that there should be a living organization to interpret scripture for people of today. You might call it "fallible men", I would call it "Holy Spirit".
OSAS is based on the fact that God does both the work in saving and in keeping the believer saved.
God the Father in Rom.8:38-39, God the Holy Spirit in Eph.4:30 and God the Son in Jude 24.
If a believer fails in time, God simply takes him home early (Acts 5, 1Jn.5)