Since I have only said it a hundred times, you should know by now that I follow "Perseverance of the Saints", not the plain meaning of OSAS. However, I have also come to learn that some people who proclaim OSAS actually interpret it as POTS. So while their view is correct, it makes it more difficult to use in a debate. In any event, Paul is clear that we are not to go on sinning. Nobody here believes otherwise.
Those on the rock [are] those that when they hear, receive the word with joy, but these have no root, who for a while believe and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13
A "belief" with no root is not a true belief, it is a false belief. Luke is talking about people who have a false faith, NOT a true faith that went away.
I know this, that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30Also from among your own selves, men shall arise, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after themselves. Acts 20:29-30
Do you say that Judas had true faith at one time, but simply "fell away"? If you say 'yes', then you also have to believe that when satan entered into Judas, satan kicked out the Holy Spirit that lives within all true believers. Is that what happened?
They profess that they know God, but in works they deny [him], being abominable and rebellious and reprobate unto every good work.: Titus 1:16
Yes, the false believer is mentioned many times in scripture. These people never had true faith to begin with.
For judgment without mercy shall be done unto the one that has showed no mercy; and mercy boasts against judgment. My brethren, What shall it profit though someone says [that] they have faith and do not have works? Shall faith be able to save them? James 2:13-14
Paul and James do appear to take different approaches to this issue. But all is still well. James refers again to someone who "says" he has faith, a person with a false faith. Works are fruits of a true faith, not something totally independent of faith. The last sentence is really "Shall [SUCH FALSE] faith be able to save them?". Obviously not.
...Certainly, if having separated themselves from the contaminations of the world, by the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they again entangle themselves therein and are overcome, their latter end is made worse for them than the beginnings. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog returns unto his own vomit, and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Peter 2:[20]-22
This is more of the same thing. Some had professed to having faith, but did not really have it. Verse 22 shows this. If the "dog" and the "sow" return to what they were, then they were never changed, never regenerated. If they had true faith, they would have been changed into a new creation. They would no longer be a "dog" or a "sow".
Look to yourselves, that we not lose those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a fulfilled reward. Whosoever rebels and does not abide in the doctrine of the Christ, does not have God 2 John 8-9
Is your point that John is saying that we should rely on ourselves for perseverance?
This is from ALMOST EVERY book of the New Testament. Either you haven't read it, or you read over such verses and ignore them. Thus, you have a set of beliefs that you twist the Bible to fit your pattern.
All of these verses fit just fine to me. They distinguish between true faith and a false faith, and confirm that God intends His elect to persevere. They will. I would disagree with what you appear to be saying and say that these verses are NOT meant to glorify men, and their brave free will decisions to choose to persevere. They show us what a true believer looks like, just like Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.
If man was not meant to know God's revelation in truth, then Christ made a mistake that the US Constitution did not fail to make - a living organization that could interpret the written rule for people of today.
We agree that there should be a living organization to interpret scripture for people of today. You might call it "fallible men", I would call it "Holy Spirit".
You are a patient man to go through all those verses. More than two verses posted here and my eyes start to glaze over.
What's the difference? You proclaim yourself part of the elect, and you cannot but be saved. I see nothing different. Sure, the saints will persevere, but when you call yourself one of the saints, you are declaring OSAS.
A "belief" with no root is not a true belief, it is a false belief. Luke is talking about people who have a false faith, NOT a true faith that went away.
Luke doesn't make the distinction of "true" faith vs. "false" faith. That is a Protestant invention. A person is presumed to have faith, and then lost it. "True" faith doesn't guarantee it won't be lost.
Do you say that Judas had true faith at one time, but simply "fell away"? If you say 'yes', then you also have to believe that when satan entered into Judas, satan kicked out the Holy Spirit that lives within all true believers. Is that what happened?
The Holy Spirit doesn't force Himself on people. He is love and love doesn't force itself. Judas refused love, so it was his choice to grieve the Holy Spirit, to reject him (as the Pharisees did, according to Stephen in Acts.)
Yes, the false believer is mentioned many times in scripture. These people never had true faith to begin with.
False believer? Where does the Scripture talk about a false believer? I see false disciple, one who is leading people from the faith for his own purposes - but that person is not considered a believer. Either a person believes or he doesn't.
Paul and James do appear to take different approaches to this issue. But all is still well. James refers again to someone who "says" he has faith, a person with a false faith. Works are fruits of a true faith, not something totally independent of faith. The last sentence is really "Shall [SUCH FALSE] faith be able to save them?". Obviously not.
There you go again, relying on a false interpretation. James 2:14 doesn't say "such false" faith. It only says "CAN FAITH SAVE"? There is no distinction being made on the faith, but on the works added to the faith that save. If anything, James and Paul differ on the defintion of WORKS, not FAITH.
This is more of the same thing. Some had professed to having faith, but did not really have it
So that might include you as well?
Is your point that John is saying that we should rely on ourselves for perseverance?
No, we rely on God, but God does not work in us without us. That is where Protestantism fails to understand the Scriptures - there are numerous verses where it is MAN who will be judged, MAN who is responsible - and yet, God gives man the ability and the free will to choose to accept or reject. It is THAT which we will be judged on, not the success of our ministries.
All of these verses fit just fine to me. They distinguish between true faith and a false faith, and confirm that God intends His elect to persevere.
Nowhere does the Bible talk about "false faith". Either one has faith, which may be immature, or one does NOT have faith.
They show us what a true believer looks like, just like Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.
Oh boy. Where do you get this "true believer" stuff? If a person is not following Christ, he isn't a believer! AT ALL!
We agree that there should be a living organization to interpret scripture for people of today. You might call it "fallible men", I would call it "Holy Spirit".
Sure. HOW do I know when the Holy Spirit speaks to YOU or Fred the Baptist? Basically, you are saying I should listen to you because you happen to be blessed with the Spirit? No one is more fooled by delusion than the self.
Regards
What's the difference? You proclaim yourself part of the elect, and you cannot but be saved. I see nothing different. Sure, the saints will persevere, but when you call yourself one of the saints, you are declaring OSAS.
A "belief" with no root is not a true belief, it is a false belief. Luke is talking about people who have a false faith, NOT a true faith that went away.
Luke doesn't make the distinction of "true" faith vs. "false" faith. That is a Protestant invention. A person is presumed to have faith, and then lost it. "True" faith doesn't guarantee it won't be lost.
Do you say that Judas had true faith at one time, but simply "fell away"? If you say 'yes', then you also have to believe that when satan entered into Judas, satan kicked out the Holy Spirit that lives within all true believers. Is that what happened?
The Holy Spirit doesn't force Himself on people. He is love and love doesn't force itself. Judas refused love, so it was his choice to grieve the Holy Spirit, to reject him (as the Pharisees did, according to Stephen in Acts.)
Yes, the false believer is mentioned many times in scripture. These people never had true faith to begin with.
False believer? Where does the Scripture talk about a false believer? I see false disciple, one who is leading people from the faith for his own purposes - but that person is not considered a believer. Either a person believes or he doesn't.
Paul and James do appear to take different approaches to this issue. But all is still well. James refers again to someone who "says" he has faith, a person with a false faith. Works are fruits of a true faith, not something totally independent of faith. The last sentence is really "Shall [SUCH FALSE] faith be able to save them?". Obviously not.
There you go again, relying on a false interpretation. James 2:14 doesn't say "such false" faith. It only says "CAN FAITH SAVE"? There is no distinction being made on the faith, but on the works added to the faith that save. If anything, James and Paul differ on the defintion of WORKS, not FAITH.
This is more of the same thing. Some had professed to having faith, but did not really have it
So that might include you as well?
Is your point that John is saying that we should rely on ourselves for perseverance?
No, we rely on God, but God does not work in us without us. That is where Protestantism fails to understand the Scriptures - there are numerous verses where it is MAN who will be judged, MAN who is responsible - and yet, God gives man the ability and the free will to choose to accept or reject. It is THAT which we will be judged on, not the success of our ministries.
All of these verses fit just fine to me. They distinguish between true faith and a false faith, and confirm that God intends His elect to persevere.
Nowhere does the Bible talk about "false faith". Either one has faith, which may be immature, or one does NOT have faith.
They show us what a true believer looks like, just like Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.
Oh boy. Where do you get this "true believer" stuff? If a person is not following Christ, he isn't a believer! AT ALL!
We agree that there should be a living organization to interpret scripture for people of today. You might call it "fallible men", I would call it "Holy Spirit".
Sure. HOW do I know when the Holy Spirit speaks to YOU or Fred the Baptist? Basically, you are saying I should listen to you because you happen to be blessed with the Spirit? No one is more fooled by delusion than the self.
Regards
To be sure much of the debate about the necessity of work in salvation is spurious. Some is terminological, some is a difference in emphasis. I never heard of a Protestant (except Luther himsalf, possibly in one of his agitated states) urging people to do bad works, and no informed Catholic would say that his good works are possible without the grace of Christ.
The Catholic teaching can be, perhaps called perseverance of the elect, -- not the saints since we reserve the word "saint" to those exceptional men and women of whose final salvation the Church has made a specific determination of canonization. We certainly think that many others have gone, guided by the Divine Grace, to their reward in Heaven, and so they persevered to the end, just as the gospel commanded them.
The difference, however, lies beyond that simple label, and it is in the central topic of this thread, the teaching on the free will. We believe that the very fact that the Gospel speaks so much about perseverance, moral behavior and charity points to the presence of free will in the faithful, who can choose for the good or for the evil on his own accord; he can therefore respond to grace with good works or fail to do so and perish. We do not believe in God ordaining men to do evil, and we do not believe in the elect lead to their salvation robotically. This is the faith of the fathers that the Church has taught from the beginning; it is clearly stated in the Gospel; it is not a product of some doctrinal development (like, for example, priestly celibacy or the precise formulary of the sacraments) but rather the core Christian belief of all ages.