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To: HarleyD
The righteous were considered like the wicked. Men cannot choose to be good.

I don't agree with that intpretation. Again, Paul is distinguishing between good and wicked men, not saying that all men are wicked. For example, he tells us:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) (Romans 2:7-15)

This is not the language of someone who believes that all men are evil and that no one can do good. Naturally, we must look to other Scripture - verses that tell us that we cannot do the above without the Spirit working within us. However, such verses taken all together tell us that there is some sort of cooperation with God's graces - the Gentiles who have the law written in their hearts are moved to obey it by God.

And there you have it, salvation by works. We cooperate and when God sees that we are very good people He saves us. The Pelagius error; condemned by the early church fathers but fully accepted at Trent.

Trent re-affirms the Second Council of Orange. Nothing was deleted. Perhaps your definition of works is at issue. According to Paul, "works" is not doing something, an action. Works is something done for wages (Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. Rom 4:4) From my discussions here, I believe many falter on this. By confusing "works" with a thing that is done, I believe Protestants automatically believe that ANYTHING we do is of NO value to God ultimately. This is why Luther made the terrible mistake of discounting love from the formula of salvation. NOWHERE does Paul remove love from the formula. Paul is merely saying that we are not saved by "works" defined as trying to earn a pay. NOTHING we do can earn salvation. But we are still commanded to obey and love and repent with proper inner disposition. THESE are not works. It is by this that we will be judged, as Romans 2 points out.

And what precisely does this atonement do??? What does the blood of Christ cover if it is for all men???

Catholics call Christ's redemptive works "objective redemption". What Christ did was more than sufficient to save each and every man. However, to make this redemption sufficient for a PARTICULAR MAN, that person has to respond to God's Graces. Thus, the Church has taught that free will somehow cooperates with God's Graces to obtain subjective redemption for that particular man. Objective redemption opens the gates of heaven to all men. God desires that all men be saved, and He has taken the steps necessary to enable us the opportunity. However, since God desires that we love Him and willingly choose Him, He allows us the potential to reject Him. We have two choices laid out before us - good and evil. Our fallen nature has the capability of choosing good, with God moving within us the will and desire to do His Will. But He does not move it irrestibly.

Regards

717 posted on 01/09/2006 4:24:03 AM PST by jo kus
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To: jo kus; HarleyD
The issue of "works" as understood in +Paul's Epistles must be considered only within the context of Old Covenant Judaism: if you obey the Law, you will be acceptable to God (i.e. "saved"). +Paul was simply re-educating his own fellow Jews (and confused Gentiles) that this is not so, because -- technically speaking -- an observant Jew does not have to be a believer; faith is not required to be "just."

As Christians, we are obliged to share in our blessings out of love for our beighbors. So, good works through faith are not a choice, but an obligation that comes with faith. Love compels us to such works, not expecting anything in return.

So, the ceasless Protestant quoting of +Paul and applying it to Christians is out of context, let's be clear on that. He was educating those who did not see the difference and believed that works make them righteous.

727 posted on 01/09/2006 5:13:22 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: jo kus; annalex; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; kosta50
FK, Harley, wouldn't this be a differentiating point between the Apostolic Church teachings and Protestant beliefs : God desires that all men be saved?

The way I see the concept of the "elect" says that the above statement is wrong.
834 posted on 01/09/2006 7:19:01 PM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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