Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: HarleyD
The scriptures states that the “Lord was PLEASED to crush Him”. That is as far as you can go.

Perhaps you should look at the context where you site the above verses, noting that you underlined that verse. Your point was that God actively reprobates, being pleased to do so. I still contend that your initial post makes God out to be sadistic.

The idea of double predestination (God elects some and others He doesn’t) isn’t all that far fetched or sadistic

That's not my idea of what double predestination is. We agree on predestination, in that God actively chooses His elect. But regarding the reprobate, God does NOT actively choose the condemned - the Church says that God ALLOWS them to be reprobated. Thus, the huge difference between the Catholic and Calvinist idea of predestination.

I would content that God hate evil and cannot stand the sight of it. The greater the evil the more repugnant it is to Him. He tolerates it and uses man’s evil simply so He can carry forth His divine plan.

Fair enough. I can agree with that. I doubt that you or I will ever figure out God's ways while we are alive on this earth.

Is John actually saying Christians do not sin? Not at all. John clarifies what he means: “No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1Jo 3:9

Christians cannot PRACTICE sin because they are born of God. They are now slaves to righteousness (Rom 6). That does not mean that we have no sin. It simply means that we will no longer sin without great conviction and chastisement

Christians cannot PRACTICE sin because they are born of God.

But they DO sin. John is telling us what he EXPECTS of the Christian, not what we actually DO. If we take it literally, there is confusion, as my previous post points out. When one sins, they are from the devil. When one believes, they are from Christ. Apparently, John did not believe that a person remained "in Christ" throughout their Christian walk. The NT over and over discusses that Christians can and DO return to the "vomit" of their former lives. Even committed Christians at times falter in their walk, either abiding in Christ, or abiding in the devil by doing their own will. Do we remain in Christ when we are sinning? I believe you are confusing the OUGHT with what Christians sometimes DO. "My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. But if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the just" (1 John 2:1)

And yet the Roman Catholic Church finds a lot in common with the Orthodox Church who denies original sin?!?

Orthodoxy does not deny the fall of man and the lack of grace found in the post-Adam man preceding Baptism. If I am not mistaken, the only difference is that the Orthodox do not place a guilt upon the inheritor of original sin. The condition of man before Baptism is not one of sin, but one of a lack of God's grace, which, by the way, is the same viewpoint of Catholicism. Catholics believe that man is born without sanctifying grace, without the life of God within them - thus, we can say they are born in sin.

Paul is talking about the wicked. We are all wicked in God sight. Or would you say there are some who are better than others.

You didn't read all of Psalm 14, did you. Paul is not saying that ALL men are wicked. ONLY the WICKED will not turn to God. This makes sense, as a person who has been so blinded by habitual sin will not turn to God without some sort of divine intervention of grace. They will not seek out God on their own. Also, consider Psalm 5, which again, Paul is quoting to discuss the wicked. But as the last verses of Psalm 14, and better yet, Psalm 5 show, the righteous DO seek out God:

"But as for me in the multitude of thy mercy, I will come into thy house; I will worship towards thy holy temple, in thy fear. Conduct me, O Lord, in thy justice: because of my enemies, direct my way in thy sight. for there is no truth in their mouth; their heart is vain. Their throat is an open sepulchre: they dealt deceitfully with their tongues: judge them, O God. Let them fall from their devices: according to the multitude of their wickedness cast them out: for they have provoked thee, O Lord. But let all them be glad that hope in thee: they shall rejoice for ever, and thou shalt dwell in them. And all they that love thy name shall glory in thee: For thou wilt bless the just. O Lord, thou hast crowned us, as with a shield of thy good will. Psalm 5: 7-12

Unfortunately, many Protestants read Romans 3 without understanding the context that Paul draws upon to make their incorrect conclusions.

Regards

648 posted on 01/07/2006 12:09:16 PM PST by jo kus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 644 | View Replies ]


To: jo kus

You should quit lecturing us until we think you have it right. Then go for it by all means.


651 posted on 01/07/2006 1:02:09 PM PST by Dahlseide (TULIP)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 648 | View Replies ]

To: jo kus; HarleyD; Dahlseide; ItsOurTimeNow; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Gamecock
Unfortunately, many Protestants read Romans 3 without understanding the context that Paul draws upon to make their incorrect conclusions.

Why don't you show us the "official" Roman Catholic Systematic Theological doctrinal statements in regard to the interpretation of Romans Chapter 3.

Do you even have one? I suspect that most Reformed Protestants would point to Calvin's Commentaries. You keep talking about what Roman Catholics believe and how protestants misunderstand these things, and you claim that the Catholic Church holds the singular keys to the understanding of all scripture, but where is your infallible statement on the correct interpretation of Romans Chapter 3?

Where is your official inerrant Catholic systematic theology?

Or are you once again simply giving us all the official doctrine according to jo kus?

Maybe you should state that you are merely speaking for yourself when you are merely speaking for yourself.

When you come on here lecturing Protestants on how we misinterpret scripture, I suggest that you should be prepared to give us the official infallible Roman Catholic interpretation or admit that you don't know what it is.

If you are going to speak for the Catholic Church, I'd suggest that you provide us with evidence that what you are saying is the infallible official position of the Roman Catholic Church.

Can you do that?

657 posted on 01/07/2006 3:14:06 PM PST by P-Marlowe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 648 | View Replies ]

To: jo kus
But regarding the reprobate, God does NOT actively choose the condemned - the Church says that God ALLOWS them to be reprobated. Thus, the huge difference between the Catholic and Calvinist idea of predestination.

But they DO sin. John is telling us what he EXPECTS of the Christian, not what we actually DO. ...Apparently, John did not believe that a person remained "in Christ" throughout their Christian walk. The NT over and over discusses that Christians can and DO return to the "vomit" of their former lives. Even committed Christians at times falter in their walk, either abiding in Christ, or abiding in the devil by doing their own will. Do we remain in Christ when we are sinning? "


658 posted on 01/07/2006 3:26:47 PM PST by HarleyD ("Command what you will and give what you command." - Augustine's Prayer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 648 | View Replies ]

To: jo kus; HarleyD; Dahlseide; ItsOurTimeNow; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Gamecock
You didn't read all of Psalm 14, did you. Paul is not saying that ALL men are wicked. ONLY the WICKED will not turn to God. This makes sense, as a person who has been so blinded by habitual sin will not turn to God without some sort of divine intervention of grace. They will not seek out God on their own.

If your interpretation was correct (which I don't believe it is) then that would also confirm my fact that God created the righteous and wicked and there ARE slaves to sin and slaves to righteousness as described in Romans 6. There are two groups or "cities" as Augustine refers to them as. You only prove this point no matter how you interpret the passage.

This is further bore out in the following passage:

Our Lord Jesus is the Savior of all men including wicked and false teachers as Peter points out (2 Peter 2:1). Paul specifically points out that our Lord Jesus is ESPECIALLY the Savior of believers because that is precisely what He is. His blood only atones for ONLY those who God makes righteous in Christ. Christ did not died for the wicked. His blood does not atone their deed.

And here’s the kicker WE WERE ONCE LIKE THEM. Paul makes a distinction between them and us:

We dwelled among the wicked, corrupted and evil. They are the children of wrath. We are not the children of wrath. However we were JUST LIKE THE CHILDREN OF WRATH but God saved us.

Children of wrath. Children of God. Slaves to sin. Slaves to righteousness. Two sets of group as designated by God.

To the praise of His glory. Amen.

660 posted on 01/07/2006 6:17:30 PM PST by HarleyD ("Command what you will and give what you command." - Augustine's Prayer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 648 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson