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To: jo kus
But regarding the reprobate, God does NOT actively choose the condemned - the Church says that God ALLOWS them to be reprobated. Thus, the huge difference between the Catholic and Calvinist idea of predestination.

But they DO sin. John is telling us what he EXPECTS of the Christian, not what we actually DO. ...Apparently, John did not believe that a person remained "in Christ" throughout their Christian walk. The NT over and over discusses that Christians can and DO return to the "vomit" of their former lives. Even committed Christians at times falter in their walk, either abiding in Christ, or abiding in the devil by doing their own will. Do we remain in Christ when we are sinning? "


658 posted on 01/07/2006 3:26:47 PM PST by HarleyD ("Command what you will and give what you command." - Augustine's Prayer)
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To: HarleyD
This may be so but there is not a hugh difference between Calvin's idea and Augustine's idea of predestination. The fact that the Church never adopted a stanze on predestination and election simply shows they don't know. The Reformers rely upon the traditions of the fathers. ;O)

The Teaching of the Church on Grace and Freedom is not finely tuned. That is true. As I have mentioned before, we do have some freedom in this regard. We can accept Thomism, Augustinianism, Molinism, Congruism, or Syncretism, and still remain within the broad teachings of the Catholic Church. The Church teaches that God desires the salvation of all men, but only a part of mankind achieves salvation. Thus, the Church has defined two types of graces: "Sufficient grace", graces that are enough to save a man, but do not fulfill the desired effect, or "efficacious grace", graces which do.

There remains a question as to whether the ground for this difference in efficacy lies in the grace itself or human freedom. The Reformers sought to radically deny human freedom of the will. None of the above systems deny or are opposed to the teachings of the Church.

When proposing a system to answer the above question, we must keep in mind the following "de fide" statements:

The Human will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irrestible. Scripture stesses both the human factor of the freedom of the will and the Divine factor of grace. There are numerous admonitions to penance and to good works - this presupposes that grace does not abrogate the freedom of the will. St. Augustine NEVER denied the freedom of the will in relation to grace. He defended the freedom of the will when he attempted to instruct those "who believe that free will is denied, if grace is defended, and who so defend free will, that they deny grace, and maintain that grace is given according to merits." Later, he writes "He who created thee without thy help does NOT justify thee without thy help."

The second teaching to keep in mind is : There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious. Sufficient grace is grace which, under a particular concrete circumstance, makes an act possible, but which, on account of the resistance of the will, remains inefficacious. St. Augustine recognized the difference between the two: "His mercy comes before us in everything. But to assent to or dissent from the call of God is a matter for one's own will".

The problem most people have (be they Catholics, Orthodox, or many Protestants) is that they start man out in a "neutral" position

Catholics do not start out in a neutral position. We are born WITHOUT sanctifying grace. By our own power, we can never obtain sanctifying grace. Without God Himself giving us this gift, we cannot obtain it and enter into heaven. But it does not follow that we cannot choose the good in a particular circumstance or that we are evil by nature. I agree, man does not choose between going to heaven or hell. Again, this is based on the fact that man can never earn sanctifying grace - but it does not follow that man is evil. Remember, no matter how "good" we are, we cannot earn salvation anyway. Thus, you are placing the burden on man to be good so as to earn heaven. Grace is a gift. Thus, even IF a man COULD choose the good in every circumstance, it wouldn't bring about the wages of eternal salvation.

If He wanted everyone to be saved He would zap us all.

This ignores another factor called free will. God, by His own choice, allows man's free will to factor into the equation on a particular persons' destiny. Since He loves us completely, He has given us this ability to read within one's heart the Law written there and to choose whether to follow it or not. This, of course, doesn't mean we save ourselves. But when God sees a response because His initiative of graces were acted upon, God continues to draw that person to Himself. God doesn't save a person without their own free choice.

The trouble is your perspective of being born of God. You feel like you have to maintain this born again nature. This is false. Our Lord Jesus keeps you.

God does not irrestibly draw us. As I have noted before, Catholic teaching states that a man CAN resist God's graces. Scripture is clear on this. We CAN choose the evil, even AFTER being shown the teachings of Jesus Christ. We see practical examples of that throughout ALL denominations and Catholicism. We are all aware of people who have fallen away. By you trying to posit the blame on that person's initial "sinner's prayer" merely places doubt on your OWN "sinner's prayer". Can we judge that person's "sinner's prayer", the one who had fallen away? I'm sorry, but our views on life change. Our paradigms are ever changing to adapt to our views of life and what we find in our environment. If a person falls away, it is not based on an event 20 years ago that wasn't done correctly or with full vigor!

Regards

669 posted on 01/08/2006 1:53:24 PM PST by jo kus
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To: HarleyD; jo kus

"Man doesn't choose whether he will go to heaven or hell. If given that true choice what do you think man will choose?"

HD, I assume you believe everyone would "choose" heaven. I think you're right. Do you think we think "choosing" is all there is to it?


677 posted on 01/08/2006 3:29:06 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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