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To: Kolokotronis
The only "things" which can become evil are people and angels and certainly both have and will become evil (because they have free will). Animals, rocks, the ocean, books, movies, a bottle of booze etc cannot become evil in and of themselves ...

Well, we're off to a good start because I'm with you for this whole passage. (maybe except for the booze part, bad memory, etc. :)

FK, if we are created with an evil nature, then God is indeed the author of evil, and yet neither you nor I nor many of the people here believe that, so how can this be?

OK first, just so we don't stumble over semantics, I do equate sinful nature to evil nature. You have nailed the issue I have been teasing for more than 100 posts. Are we born with a sinful nature, and if so, does God not therefore create evil?

The NT is replete with references to the "sinful nature". One example is:

Gal. 5:24 - "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires."

(What is the Catholic explanation for all the references to sinful nature, especially in Rom. 8?)

To me, using "crucified" and "sinful nature" together signifies the truth and importance of that nature. No Bible verse I am aware of speaks of propensity to sin. The oft repeated idea is that we are born directly into sin. It (sinful nature) needs to be crucified because we were born with it. It must be eliminated before the Spirit takes its place.

I have posted many times that I do not believe that God is the author of evil, however, I do believe that we are created with a sinful nature. I suppose I must retire to my earlier posted distinction between evil nature and evil acts. God cannot commit an evil act, but God can create a baby that will be born and later sin.

559 posted on 01/06/2006 2:07:05 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
What is the Catholic explanation for all the references to sinful nature, especially in Rom. 8?

Man inherits sin of Adam as original sin. It is a state of spiritual woundedness which makes us uncapable of union with God outside of the divine Grace. It is symbolized by the clothes which which Adam and Eve sought to separate themselves from God. The original sin is not actual sin, as we are born with it, do not have control over it, and will not be punished for it. Original sin though manifests itself in disordered desires, which is a state of mind called concupiscence. That is what drives us to resist divine grace and commit actual sin, for example, of greed, envy, and ultimately murder, committed by Cain. The actual sins we must confess and repent or otherwise we cannot reach God and will be condemned to eternal punishment of Hell.

Grace, however, is available to all, even the unbaptized as God loves all and wishes salvation of all. While our nature is wounded, it is not dead. God promised to withhold the punishment of death as he expelled man from the Garden, another time as he refrained from laying a curse on the whole mankind folliwing the sin of Cain, and during the entire economy of salvation set in motion following the covenant of Noah.

We choose to respond to grace with faith, hope, and charity. These virtues set us on a path of seeking God, which we do assisted, with any luck, by the Church in a lifelong process of conversion and justification. Some succeed in combating sin and reaching a state of holiness, or sainthood, in their lifetime. That is the goal and purpose of life. Others die in a state of grace before reaching holiness, and are purified from the consequences of their sin by the prayers of the Church after they die and unable to do penance themselves. Yet some die conquered by sin, rejecting the grace and have no place to go but Hell.

562 posted on 01/06/2006 2:53:57 PM PST by annalex
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To: Forest Keeper; HarleyD; annalex; kosta50
"(maybe except for the booze part, bad memory, etc. :)"

It is precisely because of my own misspent youth and "bad memories (pl) that I mentioned the demon rum! :)

" The NT is replete with references to the "sinful nature". One example is:

Gal. 5:24 - "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires."

Ah, well we certainly develop a sinful nature as we progress through life. The idea that we are born with a sinful nature is a Western one, usually attributed to Blessed Augustine. Its where the whole idea of "original sin" comes from. The Church in the East never believed that. This is not to say that, so far as I can see, a belief in Original Sin is necessarily heretical. I am aware of no Ecumenical Council (or local one for that matter) which ever anathemized those who hold that belief. There was a Western local council, the Council of Orange, which seems to have condemned the Eastern view, but as it was local it was only of local import. These local councils have said all sorts of things over the centuries. There are a number in both the East and the West which laid down some regulations we would find bizarre today, for example, did you know that you can't go to a Jewish doctor or ride in a public conveyance with a Jewish person? At any rate, the idea of being born with a sinful nature is distinctly Western. It is nothing which was ever held by the entire Church. From an Eastern point of view, however, this otherwise non-heretical view has lead to a number of problems in Western theology, for example, the usual understanding of the Latin Church dogma of the Immaculate Conception, a dogma necessitated by the underlying doctrine of Original Sin. Quick note on your scripture reference; the Greek says "the flesh", not sinful nature, is crucified.

" It (sinful nature) needs to be crucified because we were born with it. It must be eliminated before the Spirit takes its place."

This is what the East calls "dying to the self". The Church in the East, as was demonstrated I think quite forcefully by the earlier quote from +Symeon the New Theologian, believes and teaches that this dying to the self is something which takes place over time...as your own personal experience seems to indicate to you after a fashion.

Our concepts of sin are different from yours in the West. The Greek word for sin, the word the NT uses is "amartia" which means "to miss the mark". Essentially, the mark is being Christ-like; sin is when we fail at that. Words have meaning, FK, and translations make for misunderstandings.

Here's a snip from the Ascetical Homilies of +Isaac the Syrian about sin which you might find informative of the Eastern theology:

"Sin, Gehenna, and death do not exist at all with God, for they are effects, not substances. Sin is the fruit of free will. There was a time when sin did not exist, and there will be a time when it will not exist. Gehenna is the fruit of sin. At some point in time it had a beginning, but its end is not known. Death, however, is a dispensation of the wisdom of the Creator. It will rule only a short time over nature; then it will be totally abolished. Satan's name derives from voluntary turning aside from the truth; it is not an indication that he exists as such naturally."

565 posted on 01/06/2006 3:31:32 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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