So the Holy Spirit indwells you BECAUSE of Communion? So everyone even an infidel that is not a believer "gets the holy spirit IN him and gets eternal life because he went to communion?
That is but one problem I see with that reading of John 6, when it is not taken as the metaphor it was, but literally. Then it says that EVERYONE that ever went to communion is saved for eternity. So then we come back to can the Holy Spirit indwell an unsaved man?
Please show me anywhere in scripture that Jesus promised to give grace for confession. marriage, holy orders etc.
I believe the Catholic definition of a sacrament is that it was instituted by Christ to give grace. Other than Communion, I see no evidence of the institution of a sacrament by Christ, nor that HE promised it would give grace.So I would be very interested in what kind of Biblical citations are used for the institution of a sacrament or that it gives grace.
The regenerating efficacy of baptism is conveyed in, and by, the divine word alone.
Of course. The water does nothing in of itself but SIGNIFY that a person has been cleansed internally. When the Church performs the ritual, God has promised that the Spirit would come and forgive sins. He is thus saved (healed).
I believe that the church teaches it is the "ritual words "I Baptize you ....." are what regenerates.
Seeing scripture demands that a man repent and believe, the passive child has a ritual preformed that regenerates hi m. Is there a scripture that teaches that a passive child, with no desire in their heart ( Baptism of desire) and without repenting and believing is regenerated?
BTW This is a sacrament that was not 'instituted by Christ but is one traditional to jews at that time and practiced by John, what text does the church use to prove that it was instituted by Christ to give grace?
What is salvation? It has several definitions. To me, it means a "healing". In the spiritual realm, that means that sins have been forgiven.
Call it what you will
God chose Greek as the language of the New Testament because it is a precise language. The word salvation (soteria ) has a definite meaning
1) deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation
a) deliverance from the molestation of enemies
b) in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation
1) of Messianic salvation
2) salvation as the present possession of all true Christians
3) future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.
++++ Fourfold salvation: saved from the penalty, power, presence and most importantly the pleasure of sin. A.W. Pink
That is what Salvation means and the meaning that God intended us to have
There has been a remission of sins. Again, I have quoted verses that show that Baptism provides a remission of sins.
Those verses were applied to those that have repented and believed, the repentance and belief always came first
Merely saying "Jesus Christ is Lord" is not going to "heal" me.
I agree that the practice of believing the "sinners prayer" has any power to save is in my mind equivalent to believing pouring water over some one does. There are many that believe loved family members are saved because they "said the prayer" . I will say however that an unsaved man can not say that Jesus is Lord from a regenerate heart . He could mouth the words, but Jesus is NOT his Lord or Savior
While the Spirit is operative within you before your water baptism, sins are not forgiven until the Baptism.
We disagree. I was baptized as an infant, that was my parents decision, thirty years later I fell on my face before God in repentance, and gave Christ my life. THEN I was a new creature in Christ, then I was born again. My infant baptism was a ritual, yes like circumcision .
It is through the visible signs that God works behind the scenes and cleanses our inner invisible self. The water ITSELF does nothing but gets us wet. However, when we SEE the water, and KNOW what the Church is doing, WE KNOW that that person is being saved.
We disagree :)
Does the infant baptized speak a word of faith FIRST?
The "word" comes from the priest performing the ritual. He says "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit". The "word" is the Trinity, God. Not the person's faith proclamation.
Please show me that in scripture? Show me where the confession of another saved someone.
You seem to be saying that Baptism is a work of the person being baptized. Does anything show that Baptism is entirely a gift from God like infant baptism does?
Biblically baptism was preformed on professing men and women here was no power from the one performing it
The infant has done NOTHING to deserve salvation. By your line of thinking, it appears that we must first conjure up enough faith within yourself for our baptism to be effective - a work.
No GOD must give us the faith to believe.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God!
Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Do you believe that? Did you believe that as an infant?
<There are few Muslims that have not HEARD and refused the gospel. Their denial of Christ IS hatred of Christ. It seems you have no problem believing contrary to scripture that men can be saved without Christ, and the Holy Spirit of God will indwell one that does not know Christ.
I disagree. First, Muslims haven't heard the Good News, only a distorted version of it from the mullahs - who don't know it either.
The gospel has gone out to all the world. Every Muslim American has heard of Christ and has heard the gospel on TV, Radio or on the internet. The Muslims in other parts of the world are also exposed to the gospel by Missionaries ( in Europe and Africa) and in all other nations by Radio and the internet and TV. They have heard it and reject it.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Only another Christian can preach the Good News, it is not a philosophy you get from reading a book.
Even nations like Iraq have a Christian population there is a Christian witness , God has a remnant of His people everywhere to carry out His commission.
Thus, they are not denying Christ, only a straw man of Christ. Next, I never said that they can be saved WITHOUT Christ. Christ is operative, we KNOW, when that person performs good works, fruits of the Holy Spirit. A person doesn't need to be a Roman Catholic to produce good deeds of love, which can ONLY be performed through Jesus Christ. The Spirit blows where HE WILLS. Not where we will. We cannot limit God's Spirit to only certain groups of people. Jesus did not limit Himself to only the Jews. On occasions, He healed (saved) Gentiles. This, from the Gospels, should be proof enough that God CAN save even those who are non-Christians. They will be saved by Christ, not Hinduism or Islam. They will be saved by the Spirit of God working in them.
So let me understand your position. The Holy Spirit indwells people that refuse the gospel and deny the divinity of Christ? So that one that worships a cow may be saved because Christ by the Holy Spirit indwells him?
Could I have a scriptures to confirm that ? MY bible says the work of the Holy Spirit is to convict us of sin and lead us into all truth. My Bible says the Spirit of Christ only indwells those that are Christ's . The fact they deny Christ is PROOF that they have no indwelling Holy Spirit
Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
Their very denial of Christ testifies that they do not have the Holy Spirit in them. No man can say Jesus is Lord BUT by the Holy Spirit.
According to your theology Jesus had no need to send the apostles out into the world to give them the gospel, we have no need to send missionaries. There is not one wit of scripture to support this position of yours.
The bible says we can have an assurance of our own salvation. I can only say I have a peace with my eternity, I know God has saved me. I did not deserve it, I did not earn it and without His ever present grace I could never persevere in it. God has replaced that deceptive heart with a new one, on which he sits on the throne.
1 John tells us that we can have an assurance that we are saved BY the fruit that we produce. In other words, IF we are obeying the commandments out of love, we KNOW that the Spirit of God is operative within us. It is not ourselves!!! It is God working WITH us. (as the cookie story tells). A key verse, for me, is the following:
He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (1 John 5:12)
And this says what about works?
Simple and to the point. If Christ abides in you (think to John 15 and the vine), you will have life. How do we know He abides in us? Our good works.
Here is what my bible tells me
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
Gods work in us is a mark of our faith and salvation. But even the heathen does "good works" so if one looks to his works as PROOF of his salvation he might be very surprised on judgment day when Christ says "I never knew you"
Thus, if we are sinning, Christ is NOT abiding in us. We will NOT inherit the Kingdom, as Paul says. Thus, "my" good works SHOW that Christ is abiding in me. This is why it is necessary to have faith and works. As Paul states, faith without love is worthless (1 Cor 13:2).
Does he ?
1Cr 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
he says HE is nothing if he is not motivated by the Love . He does not say it is a test of salvation or that his Faith is useless. No one disputes the importance of love in our lives, families and ministries, but even the heathen can "love" the important difference is who generates that love and what is it source? We return to the fact that the unsaved do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit or Christ.
Do you know anyone that does not sin? Can any man keep the law perfectly? if we use that as a test, then Christ came in vain and died for nothing, I simply earn my own salvation
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" Titus 3:5
Romans 3:28"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
Galatians 2:21 "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
But we cannot love without faith! We need both.
I agree that the love of the unsaved is carnal and self serving and of no eternal benefit. But in honesty we need to say that do love, so love is not an assurance of salvation IMHO>
That is dying well because of that inner assurance :)
I volunteered to bring Communion to Catholics in the hospital for a few months, I understand what you are saying. But inner assurance doesn't guarantee heaven.
If one doubts the Holy Spirit can give the assurance He promises in scripture I can see why you would say that
Hitler has an inner assurance he was doing the right thing by killing millions of Jews.
How do you know that ? Hitler was following his carnal nature he has no witness of the Holy Spirit. Please do not confuse human desire and assurance with the assurance that is promised to those that are his.
We can know we are saved by heaven by our faith AND works. If a person dies in that state, they are assured of heaven BECAUSE God is righteous and has promised us heaven for our obedience to His graces. (not because we felt sure of it)
Actually we do agree here that we also know because God is faithful to his promises.I do not see anywhere we are saved by works, in fact scripture says just the opposite. You substitute love for works when you look for supportive texts, but the heathens love and the heathens do "good work" . Love is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. It is a PROOF of our salvation not its roots.
You said you were not aware of a judgment of rewards, that is was always about salvation, I pointed you to the scripture that says the elect have rewards in heaven. Perhaps there were no scriptures that said that those that 'loved less " got less rewards because there is no such scripture.
Thus, judgment is either to heaven or hell, correct?
Salvation is a gift, scripture indicates there are rewards given for faithfulness in the Christian life I believe our greatest reward is Christ. But scripture indicates that there are rewards for our faithfulness and obedience
“Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” (Rev 22:12-13)
1 Cor 3:5-8 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor.
Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
These rewards are actually for His work in us and in gratitude that day we will caste them at His feet
What you do not see is Baptism or Purgatory (regarding the good thief)
We don't know that! First, how do you know the good thief was not baptized before by Christ?
If he was, and it was an essential matter of faith it would have been recorded by the Holy Spirit. We can not make up doctrine out of silence
How do you know He didn't follow Christ, then went away in John 6 or some other point?
That is doctrine built on sand :) There is no evidence that the man ever knew Christ. I believe that the recording of that account is there as a lesson to us on the nature of God's grace and mercy and the work of the Holy Spirit in men to bring them to repentance.
Even if not, it is a common belief that martyrs are considered "baptized by blood" - that the Spirit is obviously present for a man to die for Christ. And secondly, we don't know how time works in the after life. It is perfectly feasible that the thief spent "time" in Purgatory and that same "day" went to Paradise. The Church has not defined this matter of how "long" our purging is in Purgatory.
Did Christ say to Him this day , after you have paid for your sins you will be with me in paradise ? This would have been an ideal time for Christ to confirm the need for Baptism and the reality of purgatory. But instead He said THIS DAY you will be with me in Purgatory. Christ was still alive and still operating on the human clock of time.
He was saved by faith alone
No he wasn't, he also opened his mouth and defended Christ. He repented for his sins. That is not faith alone. It is also repentance and love in the face of persecution Actually he followed the protestant soterology, Repent and believe. Was that Human love or the love of the Holy Spirit in him?
Remember when Peter recognized Jesus as Lord? What did Jesus say to him?
I agree, the action of the thief was brought on by the Spirit. But it is not the only fruit (faith) that was in action within the thief
The knowledge and the recognition, of who Christ was that led to the repentance and the confession of faith, that came from the self same Holy Spirit that led Peter to say Christ was Lord , and that led me to fall on my face before a Holy God. That Holy Spirit must open our eyes and bring us to repentance and faith. not the kind of faith that says the train will be on time, but a faith to salvation .
Read the parable again. The judgment is BASED upon what they did. Whether one is a sheep or a goat is determined by what they did. No sheep was judged to be uncaring, no goat was judged to be caring. Thus, judgment depended on their actions to others
NO I think you need to read it. Before Christ ever judged them he put the sheep on one side and the goats on the other. Goats are goats and sheep are sheep, goats were never sheep and sheep were never goats. Jesus was very clear
Jhn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
The sheep fed the hungry and clothed the naked BECAUSE they were his sheep, because they followed His voice. They were not his sheep because they did good deeds, they were his sheep because they knew his voice and followed Him .
The goats may have done "good deeds" but they were carnal and were self serving. To God their "'good works" because they were not attached to the vine they were dead works
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.
I think this summary of that final judgment written by David Brown is meaningful ( and seeing it speaks of the Love of God and works done from that love
The whole story of this their blessedness is given by the apostle, in words which seem but an expression of these: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ; according as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." They were chosen from everlasting to the possession and enjoyment of all spiritual blessings in Christ, and so chosen in order to be holy and blameless in love. This is the holy love whose practical manifestations the King is about to recount in detail; and thus we see that their whole life of love to Christ is the fruit of an eternal purpose of love to them in Christ."
I know a works based salvation is a very tempting thing to believe. That makes us responsible for our own salvation. Men like to be responsible for themselves. There is no scripture anywhere that says one can not be saved without works, but there are scriptures that say one can not be saved without faith.
Yes, it can be tempting. But it is not what we have been taught by the Church. There are plenty of Scriptures that say that faith without works is dead or worthless - not capable of saving.
There is ONE scripture that says faith without works is dead, and that is addressing already saved men on how to show their faith.
As a protestant I see all belief that grace comes through sacramental participation as a work. You do something and then God responds by paying you ( in a sense) . As a protestant I see that the thought that one is saved as an infant and it is now theirs to keep or loose as a works based salvation because the works are self benefiting
We have a very different soteriology .
May I ask a question of you? As a Catholic do you see your salvation comes through the church?
Gods work in us is a mark of our faith and salvation. But even the heathen does "good works" so if one looks to his works as PROOF of his salvation he might be very surprised on judgment day when Christ says "I never knew you"
Yes, works are a mark of Christ's presence. However, Christ clearly points out that there is a difference between works as done externally (for whatever selfish motives) and works done out of internal love of God.
"Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven. Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets" (Mat 6:1-2)
This is key in the Gospels:
"That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Mat 5:20).
Note this is preceded by the Beatitudes, which reward particular behavior with Heaven, then followed by how we can EXCEED the commands of the Law by loving our neighbor -
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery, But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart" (Matt 5:27-28).
We are to EXCEED the written code - to LOVE with our hearts!
Consider the Rich Young Man, Matt 19:16b-21:
"what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" So He said to him,....but if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?" Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions."
The parallel in Mark 10:21 says "Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him (not ridiculed him), and said to him, "One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven..."
Here, Jesus is pointing out another requirement to enter life - the obedience of the commandments. The obedience to the Law as representing the desire of one's heart towards God and neighbor IS THE ISSUE, not faith. The question Jesus presents is "have you combined your faith and works sufficiently"?
A similar discussion of the Law is found in Mark 12:28-34. A scribe approaches Jesus (not trying to trap Him, like the other Pharisees). What does Jesus tell the scribe?
"Which is the first commandment of all? (asked the scribe. After Jesus response to love God and others, the scribe says...) Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God.
Note, in either case, Jesus did not condemn the young man or the scribe who obeyed the commandments. They were unlike the hypocritical Pharisees that Jesus condemns in Matthew 5-7.
Jesus throughout the Gospels tells us that our actions of love are the basis of our judgment to life or eternal damnation...He is looking for an obedience to God that exceeds the hypocritical Pharisees who EXTERNALLY obey the Commandments for their own selfish reasons - for human praise. God is looking for a personal striving of one trying to please the Lord with all of his actions and thoughts. THIS man is righteous, in God's eyes. As Paul says:
"he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God." Romans 2:29
James continues this idea - we MUST add works of love to our faith...
"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead" James 2:14-16
Does this differ at all from Christ's teachings, or this one from Paul: "though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing" 1 Cor 13:2
We have already discussed WHERE these works come from - God. He is the source of both our faith and our love. But faith is not a conveyor belt that automatically brings love. Paul's last verse points that out. Jesus points that out. James points that out. We CAN have fear of God, faith in Him, while SIMULTANEOUSLY disregarding our neighbor! Does anyone in the Scriptures tell us that this faith will save? NO! Unless we love from the heart, obeying God's commandment to love, all the faith in the world makes me nothing
Thus, faith alone DOES NOT save.
Regards