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To: kosta50
That was before I got to your answers. Apologies.

That's OK, and thank you for the kind words. I apologize to you and all Freepers for being a day behind in all of my answers recently. I've found this thread so educational that I'm going through every post. There just aren't enough hours. :)

I am not sure where you are in the large Protestant spectrum of individualized beliefs, so I cannot with certainty know what you believe unless you specifically state it. And sometimes your statements raise more questions.

I've been attending a Southern Baptist church for about the last 15 years. I have agreed with the vast majority of the theology taught there. But then recently, it was pointed out to me, based on my posts on another thread, that my beliefs are consistent with Reformed theology. I honestly didn't even really know what is was. :) Anyway, with many thanks to other Reformed Freepers, they have been giving me links and teachings, especially through threads like this! I really like what I've read so far. So, it doesn't surprise me that some of my statements are raising more questions. :) I know that I will be making some mistakes as I'm learning the consistent view. I appreciate everyone who has corrected my consistency and I have learned so much.

So, whence came the evil? You surely must believe that God, who is the source and cause of everything and all, created Satan.

I do believe that God created satan.

Then, how did Satan become evil? By his disobedience to God, or by God's desire?

Yes.

I would wager, unless you deny this too, that you believe that God created Satan good at first, with the intention that he become evil. Thus, you are contradicting yourself.

As you would expect, I would say that your first statement is right, but I do not contradict myself. In other posts I have been making the case that concerning evil, there is a distinction between authorship and causation. (I do not claim this is Reformed theology as I don't know, so I admit that I'm flying solo on this one.)

When you ask whether it was God's intent that satan become evil I would first say that satan did not get the evil from God because He does not have it to offer. God allowed it, but had the full authority and power to prevent it. So, in a sense, God intended it because He didn't prevent it, but the evil itself did not originate from God. God created what became evil, first satan, then Adam, then the rest of us.

You keep saying God's point of view (POV) and our POV. If God is in complete control, there is no such thing as our POV. Don't you see the trap? By denying the free will, the whole of Creation, man's fall from grace, sin, repentance, redemption, the Lord's suffering etc. lose their purpose and meaning as they are simply keystrokes on God's keyboard.

I admit I do not see the trap. If God's plan goes forth perfectly in His perfect knowledge, then why does your listing lose its purpose and meaning to God? He gets everything He wants. I have admitted that it is a mystery to me that if God knows everything, and there is no learning for Him, then why get out of bed in the morning? I'm sure the real answer is great, but it's way out of my league. :)

But from our POV, of course we all think of ourselves as having free will because we do not know the future. We don't even know what we'll make for breakfast this morning, so we'll employ free will and choose. That's a reasonable thing for us to think, but in God's truth it isn't right.

If you'll allow me to turn the tables, if it is bad that "everything" comes down to God's key strokes, are you implying that God needs the surprise of our free will decisions to make things interesting? You appear to be asking why God would go through the bother of Christ's death, etc., if everything is already set in stone. I have no idea other than it is His will. It is easier for me to rest in that than it is that God sits around wondering what we crazy humans are going to do next.

God is perfectly free, so how can He be subject to His own plan? You can accept that, as you accept that He allows evil, but you do not accept that He gave us free will to choose, that He does not allow us to reciprocate His love freely!?

I would say that God is subject to His own plan in the same sense that "God cannot sin". We both know that if God sinned that He would cease being our God and become something else. Does this mean that God is not all powerful? I say of course not. God is subject to who He is, to His nature. Therefore He WILL not do what is against His nature. The possibility of finding a mistake in His perfect plan (requiring change) would be against the nature of God.

As for loving Him freely, I do not think that we are robots. I do think that every capacity we have to love God comes not from us but from God. From our perspective, our free choice to love God sure seems real because it, at first, is so new to us. And, God knew from the beginning all that would happen.

This you do dsipute thet fact that the Bible shows that God does change His mind (Gen 6:6), either on His own or in response to our repentance (numerous exmaples), which I mentioned earlier, and which you refuse to acknowledge.

You're right that I have refused to acknowledge that God changes His mind. And, you cite a good verse in support of your position. (You know what's coming next :) HOWEVER, I still think that God knew that mankind would become wicked and that His heart would be grieved. Sin grieves God's heart, so that's to be expected. It was part of His original, perfect plan. I liken it to when God asked Adam where he was in the garden. Was it because He did not know? Or, was Abraham really a better negotiator than God when he bargained on behalf of Sodom? I think all these verses are meant to teach us the nature of God.

You also make a mistake of believing that somehow out "nature" changes when we accept Christ. This is not a David Copperfield magic show -- click, and you become a dove! Our nature does not change.

I respectfully disagree. I am referring to the sin nature being discarded by the Spirit and replaced with a regenerated nature. We still sin after salvation because remnants of the old nature remain and satan does still attack us and tempt us. After all, we are still human even after we are saved (but don't ask a liberal if that's true :)

Gal. 5:24-25 : "24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit."

Rom. 6:6-11 : "6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus."

1,691 posted on 01/17/2006 6:24:37 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
When you ask whether it was God's intent that satan become evil I would first say that satan did not get the evil from God because He does not have it to offer. God allowed it, but had the full authority and power to prevent it. So, in a sense, God intended it because He didn't prevent it, but the evil itself did not originate from God. God created what became evil, first satan, then Adam, then the rest of us.

Ok, that's a step closer to us. We say that God did not ordain or cause sin. Sin is the rejction of God and His ways. You and we also agree that God KNEW about it and COULD have ACTED on it. Perhaps God intended it? I don't know, but I will say that He did not pre-ordain sin and pre-ordain that Satan or we would sin. He did not sit down and say -- I will condemn Satan to heck before he's created.
1,710 posted on 01/17/2006 9:09:48 PM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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