Unfortunately, we don't know if WE are the elect, only God knows that. By our practical experience, we know of people who had thought they were saved for eternal life, but then fell away. Paul says, "Wherefore he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall" (1 Cor 10:12). We shouldn't be overconfident, like the Jews of 1 Cor 10:1-11, who DID die. Even Paul says he continues to run the race, lest he should be DISQUALIFIED. That doesn't mean "second place" or "consolation prize", but cast out of the company of those who persevered. We, too, must continue to run the race throughout our lives. That is what perseverence means. And since we do not know if God has already considered us one of the elect, we cannot become overconfident.
I would counter by saying that anyone who so defiantly sins against God was never saved in the first place. God would not let His elect fall into that level of sin after salvation.
I doubt that a "saved" person moves to that point immediately in their walk. From my experience, people will drift away, committing voluntary smaller sins, which eventually lead to committing more serious sins. It happens. AND, if a person "was not saved in the first place", then how can you say you or anyone is "once saved/always saved"? How do you know that you have "x" amount of faith at that initial sinner's prayer moment?
I WOULD say that God expects that His gifts are to be used by our display of love for our neighbor.
Most certainly. God doesn't give gifts to be rejected or not used. Consider the parable of the Talents. Not a word is spoken about faith. The Kingdom of heaven, in this parable, is dependent upon how we use the gifts that God has loaned us. The last man did no evil. He didn't use the gift given. And thus, he had no love. He was condemned.
However, that won't happen for the elect because God will not allow it. God keeps His own, and the love we have been discussing will be evident in the believer's life because of the nature of the gift and God's plan.
You are presuming that you WILL be one of the elect and that God will protect you infallibly from yourself. I am more of the thought that God gives us the necessary gifts to follow Him, but depends on us to make the correct choices. The Scripture speaks of a reward in heaven. Rewards imply that we did something of merit or value. Thus, God rewards those who use their gifts of faith and love to do His will here on earth. Of course, we don't do this alone. But God's grace do not overpower our own free will. They act together.
I now admit that this doctrine suffers greatly under scriptural scrutiny. That's why I have adopted "Perseverance of the Saints", which holds that perseverance is necessary and that man could fail. However, that won't happen for the elect because God will not allow it. God keeps His own, and the love we have been discussing will be evident in the believer's life because of the nature of the gift and God's plan.
I admit I am impressed by your candor. I don't hear it too often here. I agree that God will grant the grace of final perseverance to those whom He will. But there is no way to merit that grace, nor is there a way that we can know we will receive it. Thus, we humbly approach the Father, pleading for His final mercy. There is no overconfidence in this approach - it is one of humble submission to the Father, asking His mercy and looking upon us as nothing who needs His good graces to come to Him. The idea of "perseverance of the saints", as per Calvin, presumes that each Calvinist is one of the saints. It is man who has determined who is saved, not God. One PRESUMES that he is saved for eternal life and that God will infallibly protect him. Again, Paul speaks against such thoughts in 1 Cor 10. Jesus speaks over and over about persevering TO THE END. I see a difference in the two points of view - one of presumption, one of humble approachment to God.
Even after salvation we will still battle against remnants or memories of the old sin nature, even though it has been replaced with a new nature. Satan will continue to attack us in spiritual warfare. Even if I know I'm going to win at the end, I still don't want to get stabbed 50 times. :) So, we battle, and through this battle we are sanctified and become stronger for Christ on this earth. We are happier as strong Christians rather than weak ones. There is purpose.
Of course. We continue to fight to become more holy - for without becoming holy, we shall not see God. Thus, we are forged in the fire of temptation and suffering. REAL knowledge of the spiritual only is acquired through suffering and action. Self-gratification is inimical to true knowledge in God. Naturally, some will not pass the testing and will fall away.
I don't mind taking it into account, the problem is my lack of recognition of authority. The only authority for me is God.
In the end, you are correct, but God delegates His authority to others. That is the way Scriptures have talked about such things from the beginning. Moses, for example. Consider reading Numbers 16. God speaks through other men, delegating to them His authority to speak for Him. Likewise for the Apostles "he who hears you hears Me, and he who rejects you rejects Me and My Father who sent Me", said Jesus. God speaks through the Church, not to us individually (on doctrinal matters). Otherwise, we'd have no idea which was correct belief - How do I, as a Christian, know WHO is preaching correctly, IF God didn't leave a center of authority on earth?
Brother in Christ
With all due modesty, I think I'd say that I've given this one my best shot, even though I "failed". :) I do sincerely wish for you as much surety as your beliefs provide.
Paul says, "Wherefore he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall" (1 Cor 10:12). We shouldn't be overconfident, like the Jews of 1 Cor 10:1-11, who DID die. Even Paul says he continues to run the race, lest he should be DISQUALIFIED. That doesn't mean "second place" or "consolation prize", but cast out of the company of those who persevered. We, too, must continue to run the race throughout our lives. That is what perseverence means. And since we do not know if God has already considered us one of the elect, we cannot become overconfident.
Except for the last sentence I agree with what you are saying in principle. I would "twist" it a little to say that we should not be overconfident because that is a false confidence. We would say that we take full confidence from God's promises in scripture, and that perseverance, which is absolutely necessary, will happen for the elect because God has ordained it so in His divine plan.
I doubt that a "saved" person moves to that point [falling away/rejecting God] immediately in their walk. From my experience, people will drift away, committing voluntary smaller sins, which eventually lead to committing more serious sins.
I agree, and if I said or implied otherwise then I apologize.
It happens. AND, if a person "was not saved in the first place", then how can you say you or anyone is "once saved/always saved"?
Well, I think I tried to argue that position in one previous post on this thread. Then, I learned from HarleyD the superior doctrine of "Perseverance of the Saints". That holds that man does need to persevere through life after salvation, and that is in accordance with scripture. By whatever means, God will ensure that His elect will persevere because He keeps His own and does not forsake His own.
How do you know that you have "x" amount of faith at that initial sinner's prayer moment?
A simple, honest, and great question! :) I really wish the quality of my answer would meet the quality of your question, but it ain't gonna happen. :)
I think that given my side's profession that salvation basically takes place in a single moment, it is perfectly reasonable to ask "what does it take to count?" That was exactly what was going through my mind just before I said the prayer alone in my room at age 17.
At the time, I knew that I had recently been taught enough basics that I could get through the sinner's prayer with honest understanding of what I was admitting to, what I was asking for, and why. (After that I had zippo knowledge of the Bible or any theology.)
So, what's an academically competitive but stupid 17-year-old kid supposed to do to make sure this dealy is in the books? I remember thinking at the time that it would all come down to sincerity. I remember reasoning that if I gave absolutely everything of my mind and of my heart, then how could I lose because of what God promised?
I stand behind that reasoning today because I know what I experienced. Without getting all mushy, I just opened up as much as I possibly could have in that body at that time. I admitted I was a sinner, that I needed God, that Jesus was God's son and God, and that He died for our sins on the cross. And most importantly, that He was raised on the third day.
All I can tell you is that I know for sure that when I said that to God I was changed. No burning bush action here at all, I'm just referring to how different I felt in my heart. That's all I have, so that's how I know.
Consider the parable of the Talents. Not a word is spoken about faith. The Kingdom of heaven, in this parable, is dependent upon how we use the gifts that God has loaned us. The last man did no evil. He didn't use the gift given. And thus, he had no love. He was condemned.
I suppose I don't normally think of a gift as being on loan, although I have heard of "talent on loan from God" :) Loans are meant to be paid back, and the lender is meant to take possession back of the thing loaned. I don't see salvation working like this. I believe the gift is meant to be kept by us and not given back. Of course, we disagree on whether this is possible.
In the parable of the Talents, you're right that faith is not explicitly mentioned, although since it is a parable, the design is that we do interpret. Why was it that the third man buried his talent and did not put it to use? He freely admits that it was out of fear, IOW, that he had no faith. That is why he was condemned. It doesn't seem consistent to me that a man is condemned for making a poor business decision. He was condemned because he lacked faith, which, yes, God chose to withhold.
You are presuming that you WILL be one of the elect and that God will protect you infallibly from yourself. I am more of the thought that God gives us the necessary gifts to follow Him, but depends on us to make the correct choices.
An excellent summary.
The idea of "perseverance of the saints", as per Calvin, presumes that each Calvinist is one of the saints. It is man who has determined who is saved, not God. One PRESUMES that he is saved for eternal life and that God will infallibly protect him.
I admit that I'm not an expert on this yet, but I think you may be putting too much emphasis on the "presumption" angle. Man never determines salvation. The presumption of salvation is only to make the doctrine operative. "Assuming you are truly saved, God will keep you infallibly". There is no presumption of salvation just because someone calls himself a Calvinist. Salvation is just necessary beforehand for the doctrine to have any meaning.
God speaks through the Church, not to us individually (on doctrinal matters). Otherwise, we'd have no idea which was correct belief - How do I, as a Christian, know WHO is preaching correctly, IF God didn't leave a center of authority on earth?
I don't have a problem that God CAN speak through the Church, but I don't seem to understand the exclusivity. As to who is preaching correctly, I would say that you can know for sure based on the preaching's faithfulness to a very prominent center of authority God did leave us on earth. The Bible.