With all due modesty, I think I'd say that I've given this one my best shot, even though I "failed". :) I do sincerely wish for you as much surety as your beliefs provide.
Paul says, "Wherefore he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall" (1 Cor 10:12). We shouldn't be overconfident, like the Jews of 1 Cor 10:1-11, who DID die. Even Paul says he continues to run the race, lest he should be DISQUALIFIED. That doesn't mean "second place" or "consolation prize", but cast out of the company of those who persevered. We, too, must continue to run the race throughout our lives. That is what perseverence means. And since we do not know if God has already considered us one of the elect, we cannot become overconfident.
Except for the last sentence I agree with what you are saying in principle. I would "twist" it a little to say that we should not be overconfident because that is a false confidence. We would say that we take full confidence from God's promises in scripture, and that perseverance, which is absolutely necessary, will happen for the elect because God has ordained it so in His divine plan.
I doubt that a "saved" person moves to that point [falling away/rejecting God] immediately in their walk. From my experience, people will drift away, committing voluntary smaller sins, which eventually lead to committing more serious sins.
I agree, and if I said or implied otherwise then I apologize.
It happens. AND, if a person "was not saved in the first place", then how can you say you or anyone is "once saved/always saved"?
Well, I think I tried to argue that position in one previous post on this thread. Then, I learned from HarleyD the superior doctrine of "Perseverance of the Saints". That holds that man does need to persevere through life after salvation, and that is in accordance with scripture. By whatever means, God will ensure that His elect will persevere because He keeps His own and does not forsake His own.
How do you know that you have "x" amount of faith at that initial sinner's prayer moment?
A simple, honest, and great question! :) I really wish the quality of my answer would meet the quality of your question, but it ain't gonna happen. :)
I think that given my side's profession that salvation basically takes place in a single moment, it is perfectly reasonable to ask "what does it take to count?" That was exactly what was going through my mind just before I said the prayer alone in my room at age 17.
At the time, I knew that I had recently been taught enough basics that I could get through the sinner's prayer with honest understanding of what I was admitting to, what I was asking for, and why. (After that I had zippo knowledge of the Bible or any theology.)
So, what's an academically competitive but stupid 17-year-old kid supposed to do to make sure this dealy is in the books? I remember thinking at the time that it would all come down to sincerity. I remember reasoning that if I gave absolutely everything of my mind and of my heart, then how could I lose because of what God promised?
I stand behind that reasoning today because I know what I experienced. Without getting all mushy, I just opened up as much as I possibly could have in that body at that time. I admitted I was a sinner, that I needed God, that Jesus was God's son and God, and that He died for our sins on the cross. And most importantly, that He was raised on the third day.
All I can tell you is that I know for sure that when I said that to God I was changed. No burning bush action here at all, I'm just referring to how different I felt in my heart. That's all I have, so that's how I know.
Sorry if I appear obstinate! Every spriritual book I read, either from a saint or a noted theologian note that no one can know if they have what is called the "gift of final perseverance" except if God makes it known in a rare revelation. Even the greatest of saints humbly submit to God's decision to judge their love as "insufficient". We are as nothing - worse - because "nothing" does not sin! With a humble attitude, we approach the Lord, hoping that we made due with the "Talents" He gave us. (Remember that parable and the poor charecter with a single talent?) Since our intellect and will are wounded and not perfectly clear, it is difficult to clearly see how God sees US!
I would "twist" it a little to say that we should not be overconfident because that is a false confidence. We would say that we take full confidence from God's promises in scripture, and that perseverance, which is absolutely necessary, will happen for the elect because God has ordained it so in His divine plan.
Fair enough. I will continue to "work out my salvation in fear and trembling"! I place my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ that as long as He abides in me, I will be saved.
I learned from HarleyD the superior doctrine of "Perseverance of the Saints". That holds that man does need to persevere through life after salvation, and that is in accordance with scripture. By whatever means, God will ensure that His elect will persevere because He keeps His own and does not forsake His own.
It is superior to "once-saved/always-saved". The only problem I see with it is that one presumes THEY are one of the elect! I wonder how many such Protestants think they are not! To me, at least, it seems like self-designation, but perhaps I am wrong!
So, what's an academically competitive but stupid 17-year-old kid supposed to do to make sure this dealy is in the books? I remember thinking at the time that it would all come down to sincerity. I remember reasoning that if I gave absolutely everything of my mind and of my heart, then how could I lose because of what God promised? I stand behind that reasoning today because I know what I experienced. Without getting all mushy, I just opened up as much as I possibly could have in that body at that time. I admitted I was a sinner, that I needed God, that Jesus was God's son and God, and that He died for our sins on the cross. And most importantly, that He was raised on the third day. All I can tell you is that I know for sure that when I said that to God I was changed. No burning bush action here at all, I'm just referring to how different I felt in my heart. That's all I have, so that's how I know.
Thank you for sharing that with me. We all have different experiences of coming to the Lord. Mine was a bit different. I read and read a lot of books about religion, but I didn't feel that inner experience until I went on a retreat and began to experience within me what my sins meant to God and what He did out of love for me. THAT'S when I became more serious, my second conversion, so to speak. This was when I was 35. But like I said, this was my SECOND conversion. The first was my infant Baptism! Catholics believe a seed was planted after Baptism, and God chose to allow it to bear fruit 35 years later. Interesting how God works.
People have written about religious experiences, and it is quite subjective. The trick, though, is "has their life changed"? Scripture is clear that we cannot love without God, so a person who loves, really loves selflessly, not for selfish reasons, we can rest assured that the Spirit of God rests on that person. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church - that the elect may be called from OUTSIDE the VISIBLE Church of Rome. This includes Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and even Protestants! (kidding!)
Brother in Christ