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To: jo kus
Whoops!, I forgot to respond to the rest of your post, sorry about that.

Consider the parable of the Talents. Not a word is spoken about faith. The Kingdom of heaven, in this parable, is dependent upon how we use the gifts that God has loaned us. The last man did no evil. He didn't use the gift given. And thus, he had no love. He was condemned.

I suppose I don't normally think of a gift as being on loan, although I have heard of "talent on loan from God" :) Loans are meant to be paid back, and the lender is meant to take possession back of the thing loaned. I don't see salvation working like this. I believe the gift is meant to be kept by us and not given back. Of course, we disagree on whether this is possible.

In the parable of the Talents, you're right that faith is not explicitly mentioned, although since it is a parable, the design is that we do interpret. Why was it that the third man buried his talent and did not put it to use? He freely admits that it was out of fear, IOW, that he had no faith. That is why he was condemned. It doesn't seem consistent to me that a man is condemned for making a poor business decision. He was condemned because he lacked faith, which, yes, God chose to withhold.

You are presuming that you WILL be one of the elect and that God will protect you infallibly from yourself. I am more of the thought that God gives us the necessary gifts to follow Him, but depends on us to make the correct choices.

An excellent summary.

The idea of "perseverance of the saints", as per Calvin, presumes that each Calvinist is one of the saints. It is man who has determined who is saved, not God. One PRESUMES that he is saved for eternal life and that God will infallibly protect him.

I admit that I'm not an expert on this yet, but I think you may be putting too much emphasis on the "presumption" angle. Man never determines salvation. The presumption of salvation is only to make the doctrine operative. "Assuming you are truly saved, God will keep you infallibly". There is no presumption of salvation just because someone calls himself a Calvinist. Salvation is just necessary beforehand for the doctrine to have any meaning.

God speaks through the Church, not to us individually (on doctrinal matters). Otherwise, we'd have no idea which was correct belief - How do I, as a Christian, know WHO is preaching correctly, IF God didn't leave a center of authority on earth?

I don't have a problem that God CAN speak through the Church, but I don't seem to understand the exclusivity. As to who is preaching correctly, I would say that you can know for sure based on the preaching's faithfulness to a very prominent center of authority God did leave us on earth. The Bible.

1,374 posted on 01/13/2006 2:04:28 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
I suppose I don't normally think of a gift as being on loan

Well, its not that God wants it back, but expects us to utilize what He gives us. He has given us "x" amount of intellect for a reason. Do we waste it in idle useless trivial pursuits? Or do we use it to advance the Kingdom?

As to faith not being explicitly mentioned, I was hoping you'd would say that faith is presumed! I agree! And when Christ speaks of "faith", He is presuming that we will walk in that faith (although we can choose not to). Thus, I find that when Christ mentions "good deeds", such as the parable of the Goats and Sheep, or when Christ mentions "unless one believes on me, he shall not have life", I think He is discussing one but NOT excluding the other. I can't find anywhere in the Gospels where Christ says we are saved with one (deeds or faith) without the other. Because it is mentioned so many times, one would suspect that it is PRESUMED when not explicitly mentioned.

Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. Without it, we can't get on the salvation bus (sorry, it's Friday...)

I admit that I'm not an expert on this yet, but I think you may be putting too much emphasis on the "presumption" angle. Man never determines salvation. The presumption of salvation is only to make the doctrine operative. "Assuming you are truly saved, God will keep you infallibly". There is no presumption of salvation just because someone calls himself a Calvinist. Salvation is just necessary beforehand for the doctrine to have any meaning.

Perhaps you are right, I am putting too much emphasis on "presumption". But it does sound like begging the question...assuming you are saved, God will keep you. 'yes, but how do you know that you are truly saved?' Because I believe I am!

See where this is going? Here is something for you... When if someone is misinterpreting Scripture when it comes to salvation? I haven't mentioned this before, but it is a good a time as any. WHEN IF Jean Calvin is wrong? This throws a monkey wrench into the whole process, doesn't it? We are placing our trust in a particular interpretion of the Bible. Who can say who is right when two different pastors on opposite corners of a street say two things diametrically opposed?

I don't have a problem that God CAN speak through the Church, but I don't seem to understand the exclusivity. As to who is preaching correctly, I would say that you can know for sure based on the preaching's faithfulness to a very prominent center of authority God did leave us on earth. The Bible.

The exclusivity is the source of our infallible teaching, God. Through Christ, He left us a community led by Apostles who would teach all that Christ taught them. It is THEY whom Christ said He would protect from doctrinal error. Thus, when people within the Church have a problem, who does Christ say we should go to in Matthew 18? The Church, a visible Community that one could clearly point to. They are the ones we should exclusively go to when we, as Christians, cannot figure out what the meaning of salvation really is. Calvin was not guaranteed this protection. Only the Apostles and their successors (if you believe that Christ established an eternal Community).

The center of authority is the Bible? I have a few problems with that idea. First, how can a book be the center of authority? Every book is subject to interpretation. Look at us now! And secondly, God didn't establish an authoritative book, but an authoritative group of men who would lead His community of believers. THEY would preach and teach. They didn't pass out Bibles and say "here, read this - this will be your source of authority". At first, they taught only by word of mouth. Later, they wrote down letters. In either manner, they continued to teach the Word of God, the Gospel. It was the Apostles, not the Scripture, whom Christ built His Church upon. It is the Church, not the Scriptures, that are the pillar and foundation of the Truth. The Church is relevant because God has given it to us to know His will infallibly on important matters, such as salvation and grace.

We revere the Scriptures, but without proper interpretation, one can very easily follow a false teaching.

Brother in Christ

1,391 posted on 01/13/2006 3:59:39 PM PST by jo kus
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