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To: Forest Keeper
I suppose I don't normally think of a gift as being on loan

Well, its not that God wants it back, but expects us to utilize what He gives us. He has given us "x" amount of intellect for a reason. Do we waste it in idle useless trivial pursuits? Or do we use it to advance the Kingdom?

As to faith not being explicitly mentioned, I was hoping you'd would say that faith is presumed! I agree! And when Christ speaks of "faith", He is presuming that we will walk in that faith (although we can choose not to). Thus, I find that when Christ mentions "good deeds", such as the parable of the Goats and Sheep, or when Christ mentions "unless one believes on me, he shall not have life", I think He is discussing one but NOT excluding the other. I can't find anywhere in the Gospels where Christ says we are saved with one (deeds or faith) without the other. Because it is mentioned so many times, one would suspect that it is PRESUMED when not explicitly mentioned.

Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. Without it, we can't get on the salvation bus (sorry, it's Friday...)

I admit that I'm not an expert on this yet, but I think you may be putting too much emphasis on the "presumption" angle. Man never determines salvation. The presumption of salvation is only to make the doctrine operative. "Assuming you are truly saved, God will keep you infallibly". There is no presumption of salvation just because someone calls himself a Calvinist. Salvation is just necessary beforehand for the doctrine to have any meaning.

Perhaps you are right, I am putting too much emphasis on "presumption". But it does sound like begging the question...assuming you are saved, God will keep you. 'yes, but how do you know that you are truly saved?' Because I believe I am!

See where this is going? Here is something for you... When if someone is misinterpreting Scripture when it comes to salvation? I haven't mentioned this before, but it is a good a time as any. WHEN IF Jean Calvin is wrong? This throws a monkey wrench into the whole process, doesn't it? We are placing our trust in a particular interpretion of the Bible. Who can say who is right when two different pastors on opposite corners of a street say two things diametrically opposed?

I don't have a problem that God CAN speak through the Church, but I don't seem to understand the exclusivity. As to who is preaching correctly, I would say that you can know for sure based on the preaching's faithfulness to a very prominent center of authority God did leave us on earth. The Bible.

The exclusivity is the source of our infallible teaching, God. Through Christ, He left us a community led by Apostles who would teach all that Christ taught them. It is THEY whom Christ said He would protect from doctrinal error. Thus, when people within the Church have a problem, who does Christ say we should go to in Matthew 18? The Church, a visible Community that one could clearly point to. They are the ones we should exclusively go to when we, as Christians, cannot figure out what the meaning of salvation really is. Calvin was not guaranteed this protection. Only the Apostles and their successors (if you believe that Christ established an eternal Community).

The center of authority is the Bible? I have a few problems with that idea. First, how can a book be the center of authority? Every book is subject to interpretation. Look at us now! And secondly, God didn't establish an authoritative book, but an authoritative group of men who would lead His community of believers. THEY would preach and teach. They didn't pass out Bibles and say "here, read this - this will be your source of authority". At first, they taught only by word of mouth. Later, they wrote down letters. In either manner, they continued to teach the Word of God, the Gospel. It was the Apostles, not the Scripture, whom Christ built His Church upon. It is the Church, not the Scriptures, that are the pillar and foundation of the Truth. The Church is relevant because God has given it to us to know His will infallibly on important matters, such as salvation and grace.

We revere the Scriptures, but without proper interpretation, one can very easily follow a false teaching.

Brother in Christ

1,391 posted on 01/13/2006 3:59:39 PM PST by jo kus
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To: jo kus
But it does sound like begging the question...assuming you are saved, God will keep you. 'yes, but how do you know that you are truly saved?' Because I believe I am!

I just think the Bible is replete with clear descriptions of those who are saved and God's promises about salvation. I take them all as a whole and then see if that describes me. Take the most famous verse:

John 3:16 : "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

I do not know how to interpret around what this verse says. I have to have a view of my own belief. You are right in that if I am kidding myself then I am toast. But with my eternal destination on the line, I am comfortable that my confidence in my salvation was placed in my heart by God. My confidence does not come from me.

See where this is going? Here is something for you... When if someone is misinterpreting Scripture when it comes to salvation? I haven't mentioned this before, but it is a good a time as any. WHEN IF Jean Calvin is wrong? This throws a monkey wrench into the whole process, doesn't it? We are placing our trust in a particular interpretation of the Bible. Who can say who is right when two different pastors on opposite corners of a street say two things diametrically opposed?

LOL! "Jean". Because it was you I looked it up before saying anything. You saved me an embarrassment. :)

On the misinterpretation of scripture, I think that there is a big difference between the key principles and other issues that are less important to be considered a true Christian. When I said that I think Catholicism is a true faith I meant that I think that we agree enough on the most essential and defining elements of Christianity that we both really are true Christians. (I'd bet anything that You, as opposed to, say, a Muslim, would agree with all the elements of my sinner's prayer.) You have also said that you believe that people like me are also in heaven. On the other stuff, good Christians can disagree. Isn't such the way with eschatology? If there are two pastors on street corners arguing on the key elements of faith, then I would say there is a problem. However, in my experience I really have not seen this in the evangelical Christian community.

Now if "in truth" Calvin turns out to be wrong on most of his teachings, I would still feel "covered" in terms of salvation, which is all that ultimately matters to me. In fact, I fully expect that I will be found to be wrong on some of my beliefs when (if :) I get to heaven. I don't claim to have all the answers because I assert no authority in myself.

Take your example of the Talents and add to it the story of the three men who went to work for the same man, started at different times of the day, but were yet paid the same. (I'm sorry I can't remember where it is in the Bible.) When I first read those stories I was really surprised at the answers. After long meditation and some study, I have reckoned with God on His teaching. I presume there are other stories in the Bible which I have not yet reckoned correctly. I figure this is what sanctification is for.

The center of authority is the Bible? I have a few problems with that idea. First, how can a book be the center of authority? Every book is subject to interpretation. Look at us now! And secondly, God didn't establish an authoritative book, but an authoritative group of men who would lead His community of believers. THEY would preach and teach. They didn't pass out Bibles and say "here, read this - this will be your source of authority".

Well, I guess I would say that Jesus gives scripture authority because he taught from it and quoted from it so often. While being tempted by satan, Jesus only quoted scripture and said nothing else. Even while hanging on the cross, when He said "My God, why hast thou forsaken me", He was quoting scripture.

Yes, every book is subject to interpretation and that is why I believe that the Bible should interpret itself. The whole point is that scripture is God's revelation to us. There is prayer and meditation, but scripture is where we get most of our information and teachings about God. When most of us here (on both sides) want to prove something, more often that not we use scripture as the authority. I agree that Jesus sent out men to preach, but it must be that they also used scripture to support their own words, just as Jesus did.

Oh my goodness, I didn't realize the time. I have to play in church in a few hours! I bid you a good night and God bless.

1,545 posted on 01/15/2006 12:09:29 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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