I know! I know!
Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
I am not sure if that is possible, annalex. I don't think the Orthodox Church knows such a concept as "theological hypothesis." Some Fathers, as is well known, have engaged in some teachings that did not withstand the divine guidance of General Councils, yet they were not considered heretics. So, there is some flexibility, a range of concepts within the Church that are not out of bounds, especially when we are dealing with Divine Mysteries which are beyond our comprehension.
But wat the Church absolutely must do is remove any ambiguity as to what our understanding of the Holy Trinity is. We cannot be of one faith if there is a shadow of a doubt that dual procession is somehow detrimental to the Monarchy of the Father and, even to the Divine Economy.
If an Ecumenical Council reaches a conclusion and an agreement on this issue to re-word the Symbol of Faith, which is perfectly within its jurisdiction, and which is binding on all members of the Church, then we shall all profess one and the same Creed, and our intercommunion will be restored -- because communion is not a means to, but an expression of unity, which is why at this point we (still) cannot share in the Eucharist.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: (THE ELECT)
but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (EVERYONE ELSE)
Which "club" are you a member of?
Not at all! He is the Creator of everything and all. As an Orthodox Christian, I would say that He is a Mystery and beyond our comprehension. He is described in the Scriptures in anthropomorphic terms because of our limited intellect and vocabulary, and is by necessity not a true description of God. He message is true, merciful and just, even if we don't understand it, or see it, or comprehend it, or agree with it. This is His world. Why He does things is known but to Him.
I was simply making a "logical" flow chart of events according to what you reveal on this Forum collectively and I said it makes no sense that He would cause evil, and man's fall, and then become Flesh and suffer for our redemption when He has already "elected" some from before ages for that privilege. It's not God Who is at fault, obviously. We are with our imperfect knowledge, weakness, etc. It was not God's Covenant that was corrupt; it was rendered corrupt by the unbelieving Jews who were elect to witness the God of Abraham to all the nations of the world.
It's okay Cronos. Zeeba is a little zealous and something I said made him get fired up. :-)
What does the term "elect" in Scripture mean to you?
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." -- Romans 8:28-39 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
On a simpler note, maybe you can explain why is God saving us from Himself? After all, according to your teaching, this is ALL His doing, including the evil and the sin, so why did He not simply make the world, discard the damned and kepe the elect and be done with it? What's the point?
Why then do you insist that he does things differently than what is described in scripture? Scripture says that he chose his elect from the foundation of the earth. Yet you do not merely state that you don't understand what that means, you deny that it is true because you know that would mean that it was his will that everything that has occurred on this planet, the good, the bad and the ugly, is all a part of God's perfect plan. You disagree with what the scriptures say. Instead of declaring it a mystery, you deny it. When you deny it, you make God appear as if he didn't plan things to turn out exactly as they did. When you deny it, you make it seem as if God did not know who the elect were before the foundation of the earth and that he doesn't know who the elect are now.
He knows. He always has known. Deal with it.
Who do you think "planted" the serpent? Johnny Appleseed?
...knowing exactly that man will fail
Do you think God did not know Adam and Eve would succumb to the serpent? Thus the fall of the entire human race was a surprise to God?
"Oops," says God, sovereign Creator of heaven and earth. "I sure didn't see that one coming."
"It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools." -- Ecclesiastes 7:5
Yet the Orthodox seem to believe that God did not plan the fall. That somehow God was surprised that Adam would sin. But since Christ is the lamb slain before the foundation of the earth, it is clear that God's plan of salvation was put into effect eons before man was ever placed in the garden.
It's funny but every time I get into a discussion with Catholics -- and particularly with Orthodox -- I am numbered among the Calvinists. I think it is because I accept the absolute authority of scripture. You and I may have some disagreements over exactly what is meant by the scripture, but when push comes to shove, both Calvinists and Protestant Arminians accept the absolute inerrant authority of scripture, so at least we have a common reference point for discussion. When we get into arguments with those who put tradition on an equal footing with scripture, then pinning someone down on theology is like (as Harley put it) nailing Jello to a wall.
When discussing theology with Catholics it does appear that I may actually be "Calvinist in the Arminian Tradition". (Actually my principle disagreement with the WCF is over the meaning of one single passage. It is not what the WCF asserts that I disagree with, but with what it denies. But that is for another thread).
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Marlowe
You answered that question already in post 863 --
Kosta50: "As an Orthodox Christian, I would say that He is a Mystery and beyond our comprehension."
So it would seem you pick and choose the mystery of God to suit your assumptions.
What's the point?
The glory of God.
"For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness." -- Psalm 18:28
For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region." -- Acts 13:46-49"Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Looks like Scripture is telling us that because of the disbelief of the Jews the word was preached to the Gentiles, eventually reaching you and me. All as God willed, according to His perfect plan for His creation, ordained from before the foundation of the world.
Here's a great link I read today which addresses so much of the error that diminishes the work of the Holy Spirit.
I admit I was ready to pounce with your own verse in #742 -
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5)
LOL! But, since these are Paul's words, I suppose you escape....FOR NOW! :) Seriously, perhaps we can now say that you and I agree that Paul's writings used a plain meaning approach to the meaning of the word "works", and professed that good works done to earn anything would not earn salvation.
Now we just have this "deeds of Love necessary for salvation" paradigm to examine. Rather than have me start by accusing, I think it would be more Christian of me to let you say your peace first. :) I know you must mean to include the sacraments as deeds of love, not done for the purpose of earning anything. I'd like to know how "works" (not required for salvation) are distinguished from "deeds of Love" (necessary for salvation). Is it counted by God as whatever is in the heart of the person at the time? I ask because any two people could have completed the same good deed or act, with one doing it for the thought of profit and the other doing it out of love. Is this part of the mix?
Also, as Catholic doctrine states, initial justification (what you call "being saved" upon Baptism) is strictly based on our faith ...
Not to nitpick, but if your "close-parens" is where you want it, I would just note that as a Southern Baptist, I believe that baptism has nothing to do with salvation.
The Scriptures (both OT and NT) talk about a person's name being blotted out of the book of Life!
I don't doubt you, do you have any examples off the top of your head?
The problem, from OUR point of view is "am I of the elect?" We don't know - even taking your point of view, perhaps my sinner's prayer didn't "take".
That's what faith in God's promises is all about. :) You can know, Jo Kus. When you first prayed, did you just let go and open your heart completely? In your mind, did you stand there naked before God and say "Here I am God, I am nothing, you are everything, please save me?" With everything that you knew, did you believe on Him? That He died for your sins and was raised from the dead? Did you say "Lord Jesus be my master"? You can know, Jo Kus. All you have to give, is everything you have. You know what that feels like when you have done it. God knows our hearts first. God shows us that we can know our own hearts too, and be sure! :)
He did what from the start of all time?
The question was "Has God chosen YOU for salvation?"
You didn't answer that one. I'm not surprised.
If you say that he has chosen "all of us" then that would mean either that all men are saved or that God chooses to save some and damn others.
God chose Judas. But obviously not for salvation. For what purpose was Judas chosen?
Another strong argument is to be noticed concerning the Lamb's book of life. The disciples were told to rejoice, not so much over the fact that the demons were subject to them, but that their names were written in the Lamb's book of life. This book is a catalogue of the elect, determined by the unalterable counsel of God, and can neither be increased nor diminished. The names of the righteous are found there; but the names of those who perish have never been written there from the foundation of the world. God does not make the mistake of writing in the book of life a name which He will later have to blot out. Hence none of the Lord's own ever perish. Jesus told His disciples to find their chief joy in the fact that their names were written in heaven, Luke 10:20; yet there would have been small grounds for joy in this respect if their names written in heaven one day could have been blotted out the next. Paul wrote to the Philippians, "Our citizenship is in heaven," 3:20; and to Timothy he wrote, "The Lord knoweth them that are His," 2 Timothy 2:19. For the Scripture teaching concerning the book of life, see Luke 10:20; Philippians 4:3; Revelation 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 20:12-15; 21:27.
I know! I know!
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