Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
I can name quite a few men who knew and understood Scripture MUCH better than Calvin, starting with St. Augustine, St. John Crysostom, and many of the Church Fathers who literally had memorized the Scriptures. Don't you realize that Calvin's claim to fame was taking Luther's system and twisting Scriptures to fit it into a system that seemed to make sense to the Protestnat who was uninitiated in the Scriptures? I can name several PROTESTANTS who were superior to Calvin in Scripture interpretation, starting with John Wesley.
The fact of the matter is that the whole idea of Purgatory is anathema to the whole of scripture and to any and all true systematic theology.
Saying it doesn't make it so. You have given me no proof that there is not a third state of existence after death, a fact believed by Christians especially in their DOCUMENTED practice of praying for the sake of their dead, a useless task IF there was ONLY a heaven and hell.
Christ's work on the cross was finished when he so proclaimed it.
Christ's work just began after His death on the cross. Otherwise, why bother telling disciples to baptize and to preach and teach the Word? Why did He bother sending His Spirit? For what purpose? No, Christ isn't up in heaven sipping on Pina Coladas... He is active within His Church, sending His Spirit among us to bring us to Him.
But since the wages of sin is death, you will never be able to purge yourself from any of your sins
We agree. I never said I could!
If Christ alone does not purge you of your sins, then your sins will go with you to the grave.
That's what Christ does in Purgatory... Purge us beleivers of our remaining sins and evil mindsets that remain.
Regards
Well, OK. With the Real Presence, the language fails us.
bttt
Jo and I gave the scriptural and patristic support for the doctrine of Purgatory in 8437 and 8433. It leaves room for some doctrinal development, which the chair of Peter duly performed, but the fundamentals of the doctrine are quite patristic.
logic and Biblical language also fail you.
Troll religious threads often?
That is not very nice.
FM
I don't know how else to take your 8525, especially since I actually agreed with your point.
***Well, OK. With the Real Presence, the language fails us.***
I said, BIBLICAL language also fails you...
"Real Presence" is NOT biblical language, it is Catholic dogma.
I said biblical language fails you (i.e. "Do this in memory of Me."). Your view is no memorial.
Does that help you catch my subtle distinction?
LOLOL. Protestants were "uninitiated in the Scriptures???" This from the church that forbid the reading of God's word by the general populace. It was the Reformation which opened the Bible to every man who wanted to read it.
I can name several PROTESTANTS who were superior to Calvin in Scripture interpretation, starting with John Wesley.
Well, most Reformed would certainly agree that your Romanist philosophy is more closely aligned with Wesley than with Calvin.
More's the pity.
You have given me no proof that there is not a third state of existence after death
It's not necessary to prove a negative. The burden is on you to find the fictitious concept of purgatory in Scripture. Save your time; it's not there.
a fact believed by Christians especially in their DOCUMENTED practice of praying for the sake of their dead, a useless task IF there was ONLY a heaven and hell.
To be consistent, you do not know if you're praying for someone who is already in heaven, but who you think might be still in purgatory. So using your own logic, those prayers could well be a "useless task."
Christ's work just began after His death on the cross.
Now you are negating the Trinity and the work of the Holy Spirit. The more I read of your church the more I realize the heart of the Reformation was truly fought over Justification by God's grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.
Every debt Christ died for has been paid in full. You are forgiven, Jo kus. God has blotted out your sins from yesterday and tomorrow. Rejoice and spread the Good News.
"Those whom, God effectually calls he also freely justifies, not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them as their righteousness, but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them, they receiving and resting on him and his righteousness by faith, which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God" -- Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 11. "Justification is a judicial act of God, in which He declares, on the basis of the righteousness of Jesus Christ, that all the claims of the law are satisfied with respect to the sinner." -- L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology, p. 513. "The phrase in ipso (in him) I have preferred to retain, rather than render it per ipsum (by him,) because it has in my opinion more expressiveness and force. For we are enriched in Christ, inasmuch as we are members of his body, and are engrafted into him: nay more, being made one with him, he makes us share with him in every thing that he has received from the Father." -- John Calvin, Commentary on 1 Cor 1:5"The necessity of Christ's satisfaction to divine justice is, as it were, the center and hinge of all doctrines of pure revelation. Other doctrines are of little importance comparatively except as they have respect to this." -- Jonathan Edwards
And if all this is true, purgatory is nothing more than a vain fever-dream, a useless and errant obstruction to understanding God's grace.
The Gospel is truly much richer than you imagine. It is not speculative in the least. It is firm and absolute and accomplishes everything God intends.
I believe in Purgatory.
I skied there once.
And it was all downhill from there. 8~)
"And if all this is true, purgatory is nothing more than a vain fever-dream, a useless and errant obstruction to understanding God's grace."
There is no scriptural warrant for the concept of purgatory. The only intermediate state now for humans is hell (Luke 16:19-31, Rev.20:11-15) and that place is only for those not found in the book of life and are waiting for the second death, the lake of fire (Matt. 25:44, Rev. 19:20,20:10, 14-15).
Paradise, the intermediate state for the righteous dead of the Old Testament, was emptied when Jesus visited after His death (Psalms 68:18, Matt. 27:52-53, Eph. 4:8-10, Rev. 1:18)and led captivity captive, including the thief.
Purgatory is just another enslaving construct to keep credulous people coming back to the church.
The Bible was already being translated into English, among other languages before the Reformation. The problem that Protestants believed they saw was that Rome refused to allow PARTICULAR translations to be issued because they actually changed the wording of Scriptures, such as Luther's addition of "alone" to Romans 3:28. Naturally, this changes the whole sense of the passage with this one little word - to support a theory that cannot be found anywhere in the Scriptures - no, is DENIED in James...
Well, most Reformed would certainly agree that your Romanist philosophy is more closely aligned with Wesley than with Calvin.
OR, you could say that Wesley didn't fall as far into heresy as Calvin did... I do not agree with Calvin's interpretation of Scriptures, nor was he infallible. Thus, I see no reason to hold him up on a pedestal as you seem to do. Wesley, on the other hand, I have more respect for, since he saw the need for man to "work out your salvation in fear and trembling" - because it is not done yet....
It's not necessary to prove a negative. The burden is on you to find the fictitious concept of purgatory in Scripture. Save your time; it's not there.
The concept of Purgatory is there, as I have already noted. I am sorry if you missed my post that already stated that man must be holy before he can go to heaven. It was common practice to pray for the dead souls - a pointless thing, if there was no purgation after death. This is a practice that predates Christianity! Man must complete theosis, not some mere covering like a throw blanket tossed on a pile of manure... Where I have tried to explain in the past, we also maintain that we cannot do this of our own power, but rely totally on the "Vine" whom we must abide in to do anything good.
To be consistent, you do not know if you're praying for someone who is already in heaven, but who you think might be still in purgatory. So using your own logic, those prayers could well be a "useless task."
My prayers are not useless, because I am part of the Body of Christ. Whatever good I do can effect other parts of the Body in pain or suffering. God finds my prayer pleasing, and as such, can direct His aide for the sake of my prayer that He foresaw and directed to the place He deems most needed.
Now you are negating the Trinity and the work of the Holy Spirit.
I am not negating the Trinity, I am emphasizing Its continued work! I think this charge applies to you, as you say that Christ has already done everything, so the Spirit is unnecessary for the salvation of souls.
The more I read of your church the more I realize the heart of the Reformation was truly fought over Justification by God's grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.
That cliche needs some defining, as it can mean a lot of different things.
Every debt Christ died for has been paid in full. You are forgiven, Jo kus.
Yes, everyone is forgiven of sins, since the Scriptures say that Christ died for the sin of the world, thus, no one is in hell. Is that what you are saying?
And if all this is true, purgatory is nothing more than a vain fever-dream, a useless and errant obstruction to understanding God's grace
The confessions of the Reformers are not true, the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church, speaks the truth. Purgation after death is the ultimate encounter with the Love of Christ that overcomes the imperfection of sin. Purgatory is NOT about "merely" washing away unpunished sins in the temporal realm, but it is also about OUR becoming more like Christ. I cannot understand how a thinking Christian would believe for a second that they would be able to "go as they are" to God in perfect union with Him for eternity! When you see the Almighty God in His Glory, you won't WANT to be in His presence until you turn completely to Him and His ways.
Do you really think that a "Christian" who makes the faith declaration 20 years ago but has hatred in his heart, is proud, belittles other people, has adulterous thoughts, etc., will enter the Kingdom of God without any sort of change? Sure, Christ has redeemed us, our sins are forgiven, but what about our attitudes and inner motivations? Have they changed? One must completely turn to God to enter His presence in heaven.
Blessed are the clean of heart, for THEY shall see God.
The Gospel is truly much richer than you imagine.
That which eye has not seen nor ear heard neither has entered into the heart of man [is] that which God has prepared for those that love him. 1 Cor 2:9
So you got it all figured out?
It is not speculative in the least.
You have speculated and continue to specualte that Sola Fide is biblical.
It is firm and absolute and accomplishes everything God intends.
Which includes MAKING ME RIGHTEOUS, not merely tossing a blanket over me to allow me to sneak into the Almighty God's presence for eternity... Your idea of God seems to include a dottering old fool who will allow evil thoughts and attitudes to co-exist with His ultimate goodness in heaven.
Regards
Actually, there is no scriptural warrant for Sola Scriptura. And Sola Fide is completely and explicitly denied in James 2.
As to Purgatory, there are plentiful Catholic sites that will explain all of the verses in the Bible that talk about it. Is there a point of me looking these all up again so they can be ignored by you?
If you are open to the truth, you will search for it. If you are not open to the truth, but your version, then nothing I can quote will make a difference. The Pharisees saw Christ perform miracles first hand and it made no difference. If people want Biblical proof of Purgatory, go to www.scripturecatholic.com and you will find plenty of verses that talk about its existence. There is no need for me to make this post any longer. Those who are truly interested will go and search for themselves.
Regards
Thank you for stating what the Calvinists here have maintained for years, much to the dismay of the Arminians.
Which includes MAKING ME RIGHTEOUS...
We are saved by Christ's righteousness, and not our own. But I can understand that if you think your own righteousness will save you then you will continue to vainly strive for perfection when the only perfection is to be found in Jesus Christ.
That question is worthy of its own thread.
As one of those "Anglicans in the old days", I have to agree with you. But I think the problem is a little "thicker" than you indicate. It centers on the meaning of sacrament. I have the feeling that you probably don't care for Alexander Schmemann, but when I read his For the Life of the World twenty-five years ago, I was struck how familiar his writing seemed to me. In the last pages of that little book, he talks about "Sacrament and Symbol", and how the post-patristic church in the West lost the fullness of the meaning of symbol, and that this was true of many contemporary Orthodox as well.
He illustrates this dissolution of symbol with a brief discussion of the case of Berenger of Tours. The church condemned him because he said the body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist are not real because they are symbolical. The Lateran Coucil of 1059 said they were real because they were not symbolical. In both cases the symbol has lost its ability to communicate reality.
Schmemann goes on to say that "the doctrine of transubstantiation, in its Tridentine form, is truly the collapse, or rather the suicide, of sacramental theology." I am of the opinion that unless Christians can recover the earlier understanding of symbol, we will continue to talk past each other.
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