Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will

Protestant Reformed Theological Journal ^ | April 1999 | Garrett J. Eriks

[wmfights]

"All fallible humans must always be held accountable for their teachings as they stand (or do not) against scripture. My pastor has said many times, in effect, that he would WANT us to throw him out on his ear if he ever started teaching in contradiction to scripture. :)"
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It is exactly for this reason we want believers to read and discuss SCRIPTURE. I think that's why I find discussion of translations and their sources so fascinating.

[Forest Keeper]

[On whether the OT righteous would have recognized Christ] Given the amount of time Christ makes references to them and the scripture they produced in His ministry, the answer is, absolutely they would have. His fight was with the pharisaic apostasy all along, -- which continues in the Rabbinical Judaism of today,-- not with the Prophets.

Good points, Alex. I agree. Here is a question for you, do you think that the Pharisees of the time of Jesus actually did have, at one point, a true faith, but then lost it? OR, was their order institutional, such that perhaps generations of Pharisees (or other Jewish leaders) were all corrupt before God? I would find it odd if otherwise pious men all went to seed just because of the arrival of Jesus. That would also show me that they had no true faith in the first place.

[wmfights]

"Yes, there can be no doubt this is true. They will tell you openly that things like Mary's sinlessness, her ever-virginity, and her worthiness of being venerated more than any other human in history are extra-scriptural Tradition. They believe that this Tradition is equal to scripture in truth AND authority."
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I think that the thing that gets lost when you elevate someone, in this case Mary, beyond a status they deserve you ultimately diminish that person. As a Baptist, when observing this elevation of Mary, such as declaring her to be "Queen of Heaven" there is an instinctive counter reaction because the original claim is so damaging to the Gospel. These claims about Mary turn people to her rather than the only true source of salvation, JESUS CHRIST.

It's a shame that this mythology has been fostered because Mary truly does deserve our respect and admiration due to the role she was given.

[wmfights]

"If any glory given to Mary is a glory given to God, then the same can be said for all the Apostles, or all the OT righteous, or all the saints, right???"
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One of my heroes of the SCRIPUTURE is Caleb, because no matter what the odds were against him he was always ready and willing to throw himself into the fight. I think of Mary in the same way. She is a great hero of the SCRIPTURE, but I would no more pray to her than I would Caleb although I'm sure the LORD loves both very much.

It's very important to remember who it was that allowed himself to be crucified for us and that's who all our attention should be focused on, JESUS CHRIST.

[Forest Keeper]

Or, as Cardinal Newman observed, to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.

HA! :) Cardinal Newman was a convert. He had a reason to say such things, as he was a Protestant until his mid 40's (I think). I'm sure that many of the heavyweights on all sides who have switched have done the same.

[HarleyD]

As in "Baptize therefore in the name of the Ftaher, the Sin ad the Holy Ghost?"

Well, certainly not being baptized into "Sin". ;O)

Baptism is not what saves you. Your faith in God is what saves you. That being said there are certain things that illustrate this faith in God (repentance of sin for example). But all of this comes about because of a changed heart.

[kosta50]

My spelling ia horrible. Thanks for correcting me. I know I should have had that coffee first. :)

Baptism is not what saves you. Your faith in God is what saves you

Only God saves you. Baptism is a petition for adoption. We trust that those who are baptized can be saved because God hears our prayers. God does not compel. We also know that men can reject God and be lost, through ingratitude, even if they are baptized.

You, being Reformed, can never say that it is you who believes, but God who makes you believe.

[stripes1776]

Your faith in God is what saves you. That being said there are certain things that illustrate this faith in God (repentance of sin for example). But all of this comes about because of a changed heart.

You may have a point about the heart. Some of us on this thread have been discussing Gregory Palamas who defended those who prayed the prayer of the heart, "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me (a sinner)." They repeated the prayer and concentrated the mind in the heart while doing so. They claimed to see the light of Christ which entered their hearts and their hearts were indeed changed--saved or deified.

The purification of the heart seems to be a widely held belief in Christianity.

[HarleyD]

My spelling ia horrible. Thanks for correcting me.

If I hadd a nicckell foor evarytimes I mad a grammatical errorr on tis sitee, I''''d be a weallthy man. ;O)

You, being Reformed, can never say that it is you who believes, but God who makes you believe.

I don't say it is God who makes me believe. The scriptures states it:

Joh 8:43-47 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, ...He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

Joh 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Joh 10:16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

Joh 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. But because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

To be perfectly honest, I could never understand the book of John until I became a Reformer.

[HarleyD]

They claimed to see the light of Christ which entered their hearts and their hearts were indeed changed--saved or deified.

Yes. I believe God must change the heart first for us to see the light of Christ. This happens almost instantainiously that we mistakenly believe we have made a "choice" or "cooperated". The simple fact is God has modified our hearts to hear the gospel so that we come to Him.

Act 16:14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

[jo kus]

In terms of agreeing with the text of the Bible, I would put Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura up against extra-scriptural Tradition any day of the week. That would be an interesting test, say, to find 100 very bright people who have absolutely zero knowledge of Christianity in any form. Then, have each one of them read the whole Bible. Next, on certain preselected issues, present the two views of Catholicism and of the Reformed Protestants. Finally, ask them to vote on each issue as to which view more closely matches what they read in scripture. I could be wrong, but I don't think it would even be close.

LOL! I am beginning to wonder if you actually have read the New Testament. One of the most prominent themes of Scriptures is that men can fall away and they must continue to persevere to the very end - not the fantasy of "once saved always saved". If a person ACTUALLY read the following, tell me how they would STILL come up with OSAS?

Because lawlessness shall abound, the charity of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come. Mat 24:12-14

And if thy hand causes thee to fall, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into life maimed than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that can never be quenched, where their worm does not die, and the fire is never quenched. Mark 9:43-44

Those on the rock [are] those that when they hear, receive the word with joy, but these have no root, who for a while believe and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

He who does not abide in me shall be cast forth as an [unsound] branch and shall wither, and they are gathered and cast into the fire and are burned. John 15:6

I know this, that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30Also from among your own selves, men shall arise, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after themselves. Acts 20:29-30

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13For if ye live according to the flesh, ye shall die; Rom 8:12-13

Do not be highminded, but fear that if God did not forgive the natural branches, neither shall he forgive thee. Behold, therefore, the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness if thou continue in [his] goodness; otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Rom 10:20-22

Know ye not that the unjust shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals nor thieves nor covetous nor drunkards nor revilers nor extortioners shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor 6:9-10

Neither let us tempt the Christ, as some of them also tempted and perished by the serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured and perished by the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them as types, and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. Therefore let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall 1 Cor 10:9-12

I therefore so run, not as unto an uncertain thing; so I fight, not as one that beats the air; but I keep my body under, and bring [it] into subjection, lest preaching to others, I myself should become reprobate. 1 Cor 9:26-27

lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and I would have to mourn over many who have sinned already and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed… Examine yourselves whether ye are in the faith; prove your own selves. Do ye not know your own selves if Jesus Christ is in you? Unless ye are reprobates 2 Cor 12:21, 13:5

Now, having known God, or rather being known of God, how do ye turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, in which ye desire again to be in bondage? Gal 4:9

Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ has made us free and do not be entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Gal 5:1

And you, that were in another time alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now he has reconciled [you] in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreproveable in his sight if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled and [are] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard Col 1:21-23

It is in order then, brethren, that we beseech and exhort [you] in the Lord Jesus, that in the manner ye were taught of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, [so] ye would continue to grow. For ye already know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For the will of God is your sanctification, that ye should separate [yourselves] from fornication, that every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honesty, not with affection of lust, as the Gentiles who do not know God, That no one oppress and defraud his brother in [any] matter because the Lord [is] the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. For God has not called us unto uncleanness, but unto sanctification. He therefore that despises [us], does not despise man, but God, who has also given unto us his Holy Spirit. 1 Thes 4:1-8

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to saving health through the sanctification of the Spirit and faith in [the] truth, unto which he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast and retain the doctrine which ye have been taught, whether by word or our epistle. 2 Thes 2:13-15

Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, listening to spirits of error and doctrines of demons; that in hypocrisy shall speak lies; having their conscience seared as with a hot iron; 1 Tim 4:1

I desire therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, govern the house, giving no occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. For some are already turned back after Satan. 1 Tim 5:14-15

[This is] a faithful word: That if we are dead with [him], we shall also live with [him]; if we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]; if we deny [him], he also will deny us. 2 Tim 2:11-12

They profess that they know God, but in works they deny [him], being abominable and rebellious and reprobate unto every good work.: Titus 1:16

I may know him and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death, 11if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12Not as though I had already attained [it], either were already perfect, but I follow after, if I may lay hold of that for which I have also been laid hold of by the Christ, Jesus. 13Brethren, I do not reckon to have laid hold of [it] yet, but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind and extending myself unto those things which are ahead, 14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:10-14

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unfaithfulness, to depart from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called. Today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end; while it is said, Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some of those that came out of Egypt with Moses, when they had heard, did provoke; howbeit not all. But with whom was he indignant forty years? [Was it] not with those that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness? And to whom he swore that they should not enter into his rest, but to those that disobeyed? So we see that they could not enter in because of [their] unbelief: Heb 3:12-18

But we desire that each one of you show the same diligence until the end for the fulfillment of [your] hope, that ye not become slothful, but imitators of those who by faith and patience inherit the promises. Heb 6:11-12

For if we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful hope of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Heb 10:26-27

Do not lose, therefore, this your confidence, which has great recompense of reward; 36for patience is necessary, so that after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come and will not tarry. 38Now the just shall live by faith, but if [any man] draws back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. Heb 10:35-39

For judgment without mercy shall be done unto the one that has showed no mercy; and mercy boasts against judgment. My brethren, What shall it profit though someone says [that] they have faith and do not have works? Shall faith be able to save them? James 2:13-14

For it is time that the judgment begins from the house of God; and if [it] first [begins] with us, what shall the end [be] of those that do not obey the gospel of God? And if the righteous are saved with difficulty, where shall the unfaithful and the sinner appear? 1 Peter 4:17-18

These are spots and blemishes, who eat [together] with you, while at the same time they revel in their deceit, having their eyes full of adultery, and not knowing [how] to cease from sin, baiting unstable souls, having their heart exercised in covetous practices; cursed sons, who forsaking the right way have erred, having followed the way of Balaam [the son] of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness, and was rebuked for his iniquity; a dumb animal accustomed to a yoke (upon which he was seated), speaking with man's voice, hindered the madness of the prophet. These are wells without water, clouds that are brought by [a] whirlwind, to whom gross darkness is reserved for ever. For speaking arrogant words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, [through much] wantonness, those that were clean escaped from those who converse in error, promising them liberty, being they themselves the servants of corruption: for he who is overcome by someone is subject to bondage by the one that overcame him. Certainly, if having separated themselves from the contaminations of the world, by the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they again entangle themselves therein and are overcome, their latter end is made worse for them than the beginnings. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog returns unto his own vomit, and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Peter 2:14-22

Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. For if that which ye have heard from the beginning shall abide in you, ye also shall [continue to] abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he has promised us, [even] eternal life. These [things] I have written unto you concerning those that seduce you. 1 John 2:24-26

Look to yourselves, that we not lose those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a fulfilled reward. Whosoever rebels and does not abide in the doctrine of the Christ, does not have God 2 John 8-9

Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that does good is of God, but he that does evil has not seen God. 3 John 11

I will, therefore, remind you, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those that did not believe. Jude 5

Bethou faithful unto death, and I will give thee the crown of life. Rev 2:10

Thou hast a few persons also in Sardis who have not defiled their garments, and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. He that overcomes shall likewise be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. Rev 3:4-6

This is from ALMOST EVERY book of the New Testament. Either you haven't read it, or you read over such verses and ignore them. Thus, you have a set of beliefs that you twist the Bible to fit your pattern. ALL people who have fallen away from the Catholic Church have done this, from Aruis and the Gnostics to the currently multipling sects of Protestantism. If man was not meant to know God's revelation in truth, then Christ made a mistake that the US Constitution did not fail to make - a living organization that could interpret the written rule for people of today.

I don't see any point in going further on these arguments. You have clearly chosen to reject much of what the Bible says - while holding to Sola Scriptura! I have found your arguments quite frustrating and having no common sense - Scriptures clearly reject much of what you say...

Can faith [without works] SAVE him?" NO! James 2:14

Except to Protestants, this seems pretty darn clear...

God bless

[kosta50]

James 2:14

Bingo.

[Forest Keeper]

Orthodoxy does believe in predestination but not independent of man's free will. That is, by God's own design, it is not unconditional. The Orthodox teaching is that God foreknows our moral state and free choices, and, based on that foreknowledge, fashions our destiny.

Then I'm not exactly sure what is predestined. If God does not interfere at all with our free choices, then what is left for Him to affect via His foreknowledge? Do you mean that God sees whether or not we choose Him and then decides to make those people the elect?

[blue-duncan]

"Can faith [without works] SAVE him?" NO! James 2:14

Except to Protestants, this seems pretty darn clear..."

Paul has a different take on this:

Eph 1:11 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

He says after one trusts, not works and not trusts and works, that you are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the redemption of the purchased possession. In Romans 8 Paul says nothing nor any other creature can separate us from Him, which includes ourselves. That seems pretty clear to anyone familiar with the whole New Testament except those of course who have made works based and professional confession part of their tradition.

[kosta50]

Then I'm not exactly sure what is predestined

God sees us as either acceptable or unacceptable to Him (remember Job?). We are either righteous in His eyes or we are not. Yes, we decide our choices. We can be virtuous or not. We can jump on God's train and stay on it, and let God take us to His destination, or we can give in to evil and be lost.

PS Those who are dead in sin need not apply (because there aren't any).

[HarleyD]

This is from ALMOST EVERY book of the New Testament. Either you haven't read it, or you read over such verses and ignore them.

Oh please. Every verse is either taken out of context or is poorly interpreted. I would simply point you to the following verse:

Luk 22:31-32 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has desired you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not. And when you are converted, strengthen your brothers.

If the Lord prayed for Simon that his faith would not fail, don't you think He would pray for us as well?

If your concerned that Mary will not ask the Lord to ensure your faith not fail you, why not ask the Lord.

[Forest Keeper]

[From the table, just after Luke 1:34] At this point, the Holy Ghost being the father has not been mentioned. Mary is with the same assumption you would make, that the Son will be a legitimate son of Joseph, and not an illegitimate one. However, she responds the she knows not man, in the present tense, as if she were a nun sworn to celibacy.

While the first part is possible, I don't see how the second conclusion makes logical sense. When she says she knows not a man, why can the leap be made to a person sworn to lifelong celibacy? Any chaste young woman would say the exact same thing.

[Forest Keeper]

God inspired the scripture but He did not write it, except perhaps the Ten Commandments where the finger of God is expressly mentioned. The New Testament, as I mentioned before, is particularly free from that Koranic "finger of God" style. Luke addresses his book to a friend, John points to his book being far from complete, Paul instructs what to do with his tunic. The style reflects not the Eternal but the personalities of the authors: ...

Well, the word "inspired" can mean many things. Do you believe the Bible is perfect and inerrant? If you do, then you would have to say that fallible man could not have produced it without SIGNIFICANT direction. While not referring to quoting, it amazes me that there are so many cross-references to other scripture that the writer either could not or probably did not know about specifically. This can be no accident.

And yes, it is inarguable that the personalities of the writers do come through, as well as an intended audience for many of the books, although I would say that all the books are directed to believers generally. I would say this was God's specific intention. Especially when Christianity was first spreading, this would have been a highly efficient method to adopt. I would disagree with you that the style is not eternal, why does "eternal" have to mean impersonal? We have a personal God. The writers wrote in the style of men, but the content is "eternal" and could not have been manufactured (IMHO) by any group of men.

Much of the original Greek is difficult to comprehend even to the Greeks. Many aspects are left without explanation, such as Mary's "know not man". Fundamental theological truths, such as the Trinity, are left without a scriptural definition. The book of Acts ends with unresolved suspense. Clearly God wanted us to perceive the Gospels as a scripture rooted in its historical and personal context.

Yes, I agree, although I would maintain that the essential elements of faith are still understandable to a child. Once we get into the nitty-gritty, then there is an ocean to wade through. My speculation is that was totally by design. God made us as curious creatures who strive for knowledge and greater understanding. In all of literature, is there a greater laboratory for this than the Bible? :) I would say 'NO'. I think it is a part of sanctification to look for this knowledge, although, as Joe and I have recently discussed, this is by no means the only way sanctification happens or the only way we become more holy.

No one really needs to know anything about, say, Kant in order to understand Kantian philosophy. His books are completely self-sufficient, ahistorical, translate without much difficulty, if we were Kantians rather than Christians we would all subscribe to Sola Scriptura; it would be ridiculous not to.

Part of Sola Scriptura is acknowledging that the Bible does not give us everything there is to know. John is clear about that, as you mentioned. Sola Scriptura says, rather, that the Bible gives us everything we NEED to know in order to know Christ and live our lives as intended by God. Can you think of anything not found in the Bible that we truly NEED to do either of these things?

[Kolokotronis]

All of you may find this brief paper of interest on +Gregory Palamas.

http://www.monachos.net/patristics/palamas_theology.shtml

Jo, none of us Orthodox can stress enough how truly fundamental the works of +Gregory have become over the past 600+ years to our understanding of God and yet he is actually only expounding in detail on the works of the Cappadocians who preceed him by 1000 years. In many senses, if one wants to understand Orthodoxy, and on a broader level, what The Church in the East has always believed, reading +Palamas is absolutely necessary. For this reason, some would argue, in this time when the Church of Rome seems to be seeking reunion with Orthodoxy and it appears to most of us that our differences are quite small, an understanding of Palamite theology, rejected by the West and unknown to the Protestants, is foundational to an appreciation of how the West got where it is, how the East has remained, theologically, essentially unchanged and how very different we really are.

[Forest Keeper]

FK: "This [that Mary was married shortly after the Annunciation] DIRECTLY contradicts the Protoevangelium of James."

If it did, that would not be a big deal since the Protoevangelium is not canonical, and the timing of the wedding is not a dogma of the Church.

Then how is someone to know which parts of the Protoevangelium are true, and which parts are not true?

But there is no contradiction: the Protoevangelium does not describe the wedding at all, it merely mentions that the priest did not know of the wedding at the time Mary was noticeably pregnant.

The contradiction was in the stated plan that the marriage take place so as to ensure that no one would suspect illicit activity of the part of Joseph. The Protoevangelium clearly does address that with the opposite result. Joseph was forced to give an accounting after an accusation.

To say, "I am a virgin" indeed does not stress any intention about the future, but to say "I know not man and therefore cannot become pregnant in the future, contrary to your prediction" very much stresses the intention, and the latter is what Luke effectively saying in 1:34.

The KJV says "Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?". That is a huge difference. The NAB says "But Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?". It's the same thing. Mary was making no such pronouncement about her future intentions, she simply proffered her (then) chastity.