LOL! I stand corrected. :)
What the heck are you doing up this late?
I'm on a mission from God.
Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
I am humbled by the fruits of this discussion, which went far beyond what this insignificant debate between two figures of the Reformation period was to offer.
May the blessings of the Nativity season be on you richly.
Yes, -- so what is the question?
The Holy Ghost is given by Christ to His disciples physically present at His resurrection who are instructed to teach others. The usual Protestant interpretation says that the Holy Ghost is given all Christians directly. This is without warrant. We have the Holy Ghost inasmuch as the Church of the Apostles informed us.
Original sin is, among oter things, physical death. We were not made to die originally, but the sin of Adam corrupted our nature. This is the wound. It delivers physical death, but it does not deliver spiritual death. Spiritual death comes about when one rejects the Kingdom of Heaven by committing an actual sin, a sin of the will, and fails to confess it.
I sent you a private reply of this by mistake. I only meant to reply publicly. Am I answering the question? I'll be happy to elaborate if I can.
Sanctification can be achieved individually by members of Protestant communities, as Christ wills. They do not form a church inasmuch as they do not have a community of believers that strive for unity, maintain the sacraments of Holy Orders and Eucharist, and preserve the historical deposit of faith given the Apostles and the fathers of the Church, and in a specific way given St. Peter.
Correct.
You certainly believe that a profession of faith has everything to do with it.
The profession of faith I spoke of was for church membership, not for salvation. According to my beliefs, at 17, I was saved when I said a prayer alone in my room. 15 years later, when I applied for membership in my current SB church, this story was fine for them.
Blue-duncan's post in #558 was exactly correct. To Baptists, baptism is an obedience to God and a symbol of what has already taken place, salvation.
From your #551:
If Jake, 20 years of age, experiences a conversion to Christ, and is baptized in a baptist church, he is baptised when the baptismal prayer is said and the water touches his forehead. A baptist would say that Jake is baptized at the time of the conversion, while the water and the prayer are outward symbols.
Baptists believe that the only baptism that "counts" is by full immersion (no sprinkling). Jake is not baptized at the point of conversion because the two acts are completely independent of each other. Jake is only baptized when he arises from the dunking :) And, salvation must precede baptism.
Really?
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. (Act 2:37-39 KJV)
Would you mind diagramming those sentences?
Thanks, Annalex. "If" I am reading you correctly, the fall of Adam is not related to why we commit day-to-day sins today. If so, let's suppose that in the history of the world, there have been 8 billion people. If it is not Adam's fall, what is the reason that the current sin scorecard is 8 billion (minus 1 :) to one?
IIRC, Most Catholics think that Jesus was the second person to live a wholly sinless life.
What the heck are you doing up this late?
LOL! I stand corrected. :)
What the heck are you doing up this late?
I'm on a mission from God.
"You know my question. :)"
Darn good question, too! But let this be a lesson to you about why we don't say the Fathers are infallible! :)
""If" I am reading you correctly, the fall of Adam is not related to why we commit day-to-day sins today. If so, let's suppose that in the history of the world, there have been 8 billion people. If it is not Adam's fall, what is the reason that the current sin scorecard is 8 billion (minus 1 :) to one?"
I shouldn't answer this for Alex, but I will anyway because Greeks are pushy people. The Sin of Adam so distorted the nature of mankind, that men could not "hit the mark" anymore; they sinned. In the Orthodox understanding, man was created in a state of potential theosis and equipped to become "like God". Death and sin did not exist. When Adam sinned human nature became twisted in such a way that on their own they couldn't not sin. By the Incarnation, the potential of theosis which was an attribute of our original creation was restored, the power of death was destroyed and we weren't bound to continue sinning. We were given a second chance". As I observed earlier, this is why Orthodoxy calls Christ the "New Adam".
It occurs to me that the Protestant idea of salvation being a single event in life is consistent with another Western theological idea that Adam and Eve were created in full perfection, a notion which the East has never accepted.
In any event, it was indeed the Sin of Adam which brought sin into the world. But Adam's sin doesn't spiritually kill any of us because while we bear the consequences of Adams Sin, we don't share his guilt. We are guilty of our own sins.
Please re-phrase or clarify your question. It's Orthodox Nativity (according to the Old Calendar), so I may not reply immediately.
Christ is born!
LOL! Though, if you're suffering through that, it's not that funny!
Bump for later read.
Hey! We are attached to the same vine, glory be!; we can not be plucked off; much more important to me is that we can not drop off.
You didn't explain that in your post. One could take it that God was pleased to crush Him because He takes delight in sending people to hell. Given the Calvinsist idea of double predestination, is it surprising that I thought that you considered God sadistic?
I already gave you my interpretation by posting Isaiah and Ezekiel, plus what we find in Hebrews about WHY God allows evil - to discipline those whom He loves and to bring them back to good. God does not desire that people reject Him.
As a matter of fact, yes {that God told you that you were of the elect}. Thus sayeth the Lord: "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..
And John also says "everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil" (1 John 3:8). I don't think John meant that these two verses were to be taken literally, because he ALSO says "if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8). I believe what John means is that our relationship with Christ changes, depending on whether we are "in sin" or "in Christ". Are we currently abiding in Christ or are we abiding in the devil? A person who has sinned and not asked for forgiveness is not "born of Christ" - but this is not an ontological statement - since Christians who have sinned have been born again. When Paul and John talk about Christians and sin, they tell us what they OUGHT to be doing, not what they ARE doing. It is evident that Christians sin, even after being born again.
The Roman Catholic Church abandoned Augustine's and the Council of Carthage (418) view of original sin in 1109 (a teaching that had been in the Church for almost 700 years) to introduce Anselm's idea of limbo. A doctrine, btw, that was established against the false view of Pelagius who preached the same thing.
The Council of Carthage of 418 was a result of Pelagianism. It denied the necessity of grace and the reality of original sin. The Council censured the following heresies:
Adam was mortal; his sin harmed himself only, not his offspring; newborn children are in the same condition as Adam before the fall; Christ's death and resurrection are not the cause for human persons rising from the dead since even before Christ's coming there were people without sin.
Trent merely reaffirmed all of these in the Fifth Session on the Decree on Original Sin (1546). I don't know exactly what you are talking about regarding what teachings of St. Augustine that were adopted at Carthage and then ignored or changed in 1109.
I will note that the Council of Carthage fully defends the efficacious use of infant baptism, which was defended again by a letter from Pope Innocent in 1201. In the letter, the Pope explains the different nature of personal sin and original sin. He continues the teachings found at Carthage and again reaffirmed in the five canons at Trent on Original sin.
The first time I see a Pope talk specifically about "Limbo" is by Pope Pius VI (1775-1799), which he writes in an effort to quash a re-birth of Pelagianism. I have no idea where you got St. Anselm as the introducer of the teaching of Limbo, which was merely an opinion, never a dogma of the Church. St. Augustine's idea of mass damnatia was NEVER accepted by the Second Council of Orange or the Council of Carthage. Can you please point to me where the Universal Church teaches that all unbaptized babies go to hell? Regarding limbo, I believe that those who taught it understood that these infants would be "punished" differently than those who were in hell because of personal sin. Theologians distinguish between "poena damni" - the exclusion from the Beatific Vision of God, and "poena sensu", caused by external means and which will be felt by the senses.
According to "The Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Dr. Ott writes: "while St. Augustine and many Latin Fathers are of the opinion that children dying in original sin must suffer "poena sensus" also, even if only a very mild one, the Greek Fathers and the majority of the Schoolmen and more recent theologians, teach that they suffer "poena damni" only. The declaration of Pope Innocent III is in favor of this teaching." Ott, (Ott, pg 114).
A condition of natural bliss is compatible with "poena damni". Theologians had assumed that there would be a special place or state for such children, which they called "children's Limbo". As I said before, Pope Pius VI adopted this view against the Synod of Pistoia (Denzinger 1526).
Today, theologians have largely abandoned the concept of Limbo, merely calling it speculation.
Regarding Romans 3, I suggest you read Psalms 14, which was what Paul is quoting from. Paul is writing about the wicked. THEY are the ones Paul is talking about. If you note in Psalm 14, the sacred writer later refers to the righteous, who DO seek out God. The teaching Paul is giving is that the wicked do not seek out God, not a one. He is not giving us a lesson about the wickedness of every man ever born. This would be excluding great chunks of Scripture that tell us about righteous men who DO seek out God!
Regards
You just answered it. I will quote it as Catholic Dogma.
Thanks
And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? -- Acts 10:44-47"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
Looks like Peter believed in an independent, egalitarian Holy Spirit who gives Himself to whom He wills, according to His will alone. As Peter received the Holy Spirit, so, too, some Gentiles, some Jews, some Poles, some Ethiopians, some Scots, some Laplanders, some in New Jersey, some in Detroit, some who seek Him and some who are surprised by Him, like Paul. Like me.
Extract yourself from the clutter. The Holy Spirit is precise and inerrant. The Trinity is three, not four.
Look, if you are going to persist in quoting scripture as an answer to these theological questions I'm going back to reading my book. Can't you quote some author or divine who has an opinion rather than the original source? One would think the scriptures were understandable to the individual with the unmediated illumination of the Holy Spirit!
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