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Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will
Protestant Reformed Theological Journal ^ | April 1999 | Garrett J. Eriks

Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD

Introduction

At the time of the Reformation, many hoped Martin Luther and Erasmus could unite against the errors of the Roman Catholic Church. Luther himself was tempted to unite with Erasmus because Erasmus was a great Renaissance scholar who studied the classics and the Greek New Testament. Examining the Roman Catholic Church, Erasmus was infuriated with the abuses in the Roman Catholic Church, especially those of the clergy. These abuses are vividly described in the satire of his book, The Praise of Folly. Erasmus called for reform in the Roman Catholic Church. Erasmus could have been a great help to the Reformation, so it seemed, by using the Renaissance in the service of the Reformation.

But a great chasm separated these two men. Luther loved the truth of God's Word as that was revealed to him through his own struggles with the assurance of salvation. Therefore Luther wanted true reformation in the church, which would be a reformation in doctrine and practice. Erasmus cared little about a right knowledge of truth. He simply wanted moral reform in the Roman Catholic Church. He did not want to leave the church, but remained supportive of the Pope.

This fundamental difference points out another difference between the two men. Martin Luther was bound by the Word of God. Therefore the content of the Scripture was of utmost importance to him. But Erasmus did not hold to this same high view of Scripture. Erasmus was a Renaissance rationalist who placed reason above Scripture. Therefore the truth of Scripture was not that important to him.

The two men could not have fellowship with each other, for the two movements which they represented were antithetical to each other. The fundamental differences came out especially in the debate over the freedom of the will.

From 1517 on, the chasm between Luther and Erasmus grew. The more Luther learned about Erasmus, the less he wanted anything to do with him. Melanchthon tried to play the mediator between Luther and Erasmus with no success. But many hated Erasmus because he was so outspoken against the church. These haters of Erasmus tried to discredit him by associating him with Luther, who was outside the church by this time. Erasmus continued to deny this unity, saying he did not know much about the writings of Luther. But as Luther took a stronger stand against the doctrinal abuses of Rome, Erasmus was forced either to agree with Luther or to dissociate himself from Luther. Erasmus chose the latter.

Many factors came together which finally caused Erasmus to wield his pen against Luther. Erasmus was under constant pressure from the Pope and later the king of England to refute the views of Luther. When Luther became more outspoken against Erasmus, Erasmus finally decided to write against him. On September 1, 1524, Erasmus published his treatise On the Freedom of the Will. In December of 1525, Luther responded with The Bondage of the Will.

Packer and Johnston call The Bondage of the Will "the greatest piece of theological writing that ever came from Luther's pen."1 Although Erasmus writes with eloquence, his writing cannot compare with that of Luther the theologian. Erasmus writes as one who cares little about the subject, while Luther writes with passion and conviction, giving glory to God. In his work, Luther defends the heart of the gospel over against the Pelagian error as defended by Erasmus. This controversy is of utmost importance.

In this paper, I will summarize both sides of the controversy, looking at what each taught and defended. Secondly, I will examine the biblical approach of each man. Finally, the main issues will be pointed out and the implications of the controversy will be drawn out for the church today.

Erasmus On the Freedom of the Will

Erasmus defines free-will or free choice as "a power of the human will by which a man can apply himself to the things which lead to eternal salvation or turn away from them." By this, Erasmus means that man has voluntary or free power of himself to choose the way which leads to salvation apart from the grace of God.

Erasmus attempts to answer the question how man is saved: Is it the work of God or the work of man according to his free will? Erasmus answers that it is not one or the other. Salvation does not have to be one or the other, for God and man cooperate. On the one hand, Erasmus defines free-will, saying man can choose freely by himself, but on the other hand, he wants to retain the necessity of grace for salvation. Those who do good works by free-will do not attain the end they desire unless aided by God's grace. Therefore, in regard to salvation, man cooperates with God. Both must play their part in order for a man to be saved. Erasmus expresses it this way: "Those who support free choice nonetheless admit that a soul which is obstinate in evil cannot be softened into true repentance without the help of heavenly grace." Also, attributing all things to divine grace, Erasmus states,

And the upshot of it is that we should not arrogate anything to ourselves but attribute all things we have received to divine grace … that our will might be synergos (fellow-worker) with grace although grace is itself sufficient for all things and has no need of the assistance of any human will."

In his work On the Freedom of the Will, Erasmus defends this synergistic view of salvation. According to Erasmus, God and man, nature and grace, cooperate together in the salvation of a man. With this view of salvation, Erasmus tries to steer clear of outright Pelagianism and denies the necessity of human action which Martin Luther defends.

On the basis of an apocryphal passage (Ecclesiasticas 15:14-17), Erasmus begins his defense with the origin of free-will. Erasmus says that Adam, as he was created, had a free-will to choose good or to turn to evil. In Paradise, man's will was free and upright to choose. Adam did not depend upon the grace of God, but chose to do all things voluntarily. The question which follows is, "What happened to the will when Adam sinned; does man still retain this free-will?" Erasmus would answer, "Yes." Erasmus says that the will is born out of a man's reason. In the fall, man's reason was obscured but was not extinguished. Therefore the will, by which we choose, is depraved so that it cannot change its ways. The will serves sin. But this is qualified. Man's ability to choose freely or voluntarily is not hindered.

By this depravity of the will, Erasmus does not mean that man can do no good. Because of the fall, the will is "inclined" to evil, but can still do good. Notice, he says the will is only "inclined" to evil. Therefore the will can freely or voluntarily choose between good and evil. This is what he says in his definition: free-will is "a power of the human will by which a man can apply himself to the things which lead to eternal salvation." Not only does the human will have power, although a little power, but the will has power by which a man merits salvation.

This free choice of man is necessary according to Erasmus in order for there to be sin. In order for a man to be guilty of sin, he must be able to know the difference between good and evil, and he must be able to choose between doing good and doing evil. A man is responsible only if he has the ability to choose good or evil. If the free-will of man is taken away, Erasmus says that man ceases to be a man.

For this freedom of the will, Erasmus claims to find much support in Scripture. According to Erasmus, when Scripture speaks of "choosing," it implies that man can freely choose. Also, whenever the Scripture uses commands, threats, exhortations, blessings, and cursings, it follows that man is capable of choosing whether or not he will obey.

Erasmus defines the work of man's will by which he can freely choose after the fall. Here he makes distinctions in his idea of a "threefold kind of law" which is made up of the "law of nature, law of works, and law of faith." First, this law of nature is in all men. By this law of nature, men do good by doing to others what they would want others to do to them. Having this law of nature, all men have a knowledge of God. By this law of nature, the will can choose good, but the will in this condition is useless for salvation. Therefore more is needed. The law of works is man's choice when he hears the threats of punishment which God gives. When a man hears these threats, he either continues to forsake God, or he desires God's grace. When a man desires God's grace, he then receives the law of faith which cures the sinful inclinations of his reason. A man has this law of faith only by divine grace.

In connection with this threefold kind of law, Erasmus distinguishes between three graces of God. First, in all men, even in those who remain in sin, a grace is implanted by God. But this grace is infected by sin. This grace arouses men by a certain knowledge of God to seek Him. The second grace is peculiar grace which arouses the sinner to repent. This does not involve the abolishing of sin or justification. But rather, a man becomes "a candidate for the highest grace." By this grace offered to all men, God invites all, and the sinner must come desiring God's grace. This grace helps the will to desire God. The final grace is the concluding grace which completes what was started. This is saving grace only for those who come by their free-will. Man begins on the path to salvation, after which God completes what man started. Along with man's natural abilities according to his will, God works by His grace. This is the synergos, or cooperation, which Erasmus defends.

Erasmus defends the free-will of man with a view to meriting salvation. This brings us to the heart of the matter. Erasmus begins with the premise that a man merits salvation. In order for a man to merit salvation, he cannot be completely carried by God, but he must have a free-will by which he chooses God voluntarily. Therefore, Erasmus concludes that by the exercise of his free-will, man merits salvation with God. When man obeys, God imputes this to his merit. Therefore Erasmus says, "This surely goes to show that it is not wrong to say that man does something…." Concerning the merit of man's works, Erasmus distinguishes with the Scholastics between congruent and condign merit. The former is that which a man performs by his own strength, making him a "fit subject for the gift of internal grace." This work of man removed the barrier which keeps God from giving grace. The barrier removed is man's unworthiness for grace, which God gives only to those who are fit for it. With the gift of grace, man can do works which before he could not do. God rewards these gifts with salvation. Therefore, with the help or aid of the grace of God, a man merits eternal salvation.

Although he says a man merits salvation, Erasmus wants to say that salvation is by God's grace. In order to hold both the free-will of man and the grace of God in salvation, Erasmus tries to show the two are not opposed to each other. He says, "It is not wrong to say that man does something yet attributes the sum of all he does to God as the author." Explaining the relationship between grace and free-will, Erasmus says that the grace of God and the free-will of man, as two causes, come together in one action "in such a way, however, that grace is the principle cause and the will secondary, which can do nothing apart from the principle cause since the principle is sufficient in itself." Therefore, in regard to salvation, God and man work together. Man has a free-will, but this will cannot attain salvation of itself. The will needs a boost from grace in order to merit eternal life.

Erasmus uses many pictures to describe the relationship between works and grace. He calls grace an "advisor," "helper," and "architect." Just as the builder of a house needs the architect to show him what to do and to set him straight when he does something wrong, so also man needs the assistance of God to help him where he is lacking. The free-will of man is aided by a necessary helper: grace. Therefore Erasmus says, "as we show a boy an apple and he runs for it ... so God knocks at our soul with His grace and we willingly embrace it." In this example, we are like a boy who cannot walk. The boy wants the apple, but he needs his father to assist him in obtaining the apple. So also, we need the assistance of God's grace. Man has a free-will by which he can seek after God, but this is not enough for him to merit salvation. By embracing God's grace with his free-will, man merits God's grace so that by his free-will and the help of God's grace he merits eternal life. This is a summary of what Erasmus defends.

Erasmus also deals with the relationship of God's foreknowledge and man's free-will. On the one hand, God does what he wills, but, on the other hand, God's will does not impose anything on man's will, for then man's will would not be free or voluntary. Therefore God's foreknowledge is not determinative, but He simply knows what man will choose. Men deserve punishment from eternity simply because God knows they will not choose the good, but will choose the evil. Man can resist the ordained will of God. The only thing man cannot resist is when God wills in miracles. When God performs some "supernatural" work, this cannot be resisted by men. For example, when Jesus performed a miracle, the man whose sight returned could not refuse to be healed. According to Erasmus, because man's will is free, God's will and foreknowledge depend on man's will except when He performs miracles.

This is a summary of what Erasmus taught in his treatise On the Freedom of the Will. In response to this treatise, Luther wrote The Bondage of the Will. We turn to this book of Luther.

Luther's Arguments Against Erasmus

Martin Luther gives a thorough defense of the sovereign grace of God over against the "semi-Pelagianism" of Erasmus by going through much of Erasmus' On the Freedom of the Will phrase by phrase. Against the cooperating work of salvation defended by Erasmus, Luther attacks Erasmus at the very heart of the issue. Luther's thesis is that "free-will is a nonentity, a thing consisting of name alone" because man is a slave to sin. Therefore salvation is the sovereign work of God alone.

In the "Diatribe," Luther says, Erasmus makes no sense. It seems Erasmus speaks out of both sides of his mouth. On the one hand, he says that man's will cannot will any good, yet on the other hand, he says man has a free-will. Other contradictions also exist in Erasmus' thought. Erasmus says that man has the power to choose good, but he also says that man needs grace to do good. Opposing Erasmus, Luther rightly points out that if there is free-will, there is no need for grace. Because of these contradictions in Erasmus, Luther says Erasmus "argues like a man drunk or asleep, blurting out between snores, 'Yes,' 'No.' " Not only does this view of Erasmus not make sense, but this is not what Scripture says concerning the will of man and the grace of God.

According to Luther, Erasmus does not prove his point, namely, the idea that man with his free-will cooperates in salvation with God. Throughout his work, Luther shows that Erasmus supports and agrees with the Pelagians. In fact, Erasmus' view is more despicable than Pelagianism because he is not honest and because the grace of God is cheapened. Only a small work is needed in order for a man to merit the grace of God.

Because Erasmus does not take up the question of what man can actually do of himself as fallen in Adam, Luther takes up the question of the ability of man. Here, Luther comes to the heart of his critique of the Diatribe in which he denies free-will and shows that God must be and is sovereign in salvation. Luther's arguments follow two lines: first, he shows that man is enslaved to sin and does not have a free-will; secondly, he shows that the truth of God's sovereign rule, by which He accomplishes His will according to His counsel, is opposed to free-will.

First, Luther successfully defends the thesis that there is no such entity as free-will because the will is enslaved to sin. Luther often says there is no such thing as free-will. The will of man without the grace of God "is not free at all, but is the permanent prisoner and bondslave of evil since it cannot turn itself to good." The free-will lost its freedom in the fall so that now the will is a slave to sin. This means the will can will no good. Therefore man does and wills sin "necessarily." Luther further describes the condition of man's will when he explains a passage from Ezekiel: "It cannot but fall into a worse condition, and add to its sins despair and impenitence unless God comes straightway to its help and calls it back and raises it up by the word of His promise."

Luther makes a crucial distinction in explaining what he means when he says man sins "necessarily." This does not mean "compulsion." A man without the Spirit is not forced, kicking and screaming, to sin but voluntarily does evil. Nevertheless, because man is enslaved to sin, his will cannot change itself. He only wills or chooses to sin of himself. He cannot change this willingness of his: he wills and desires evil. Man is wholly evil, thinking nothing but evil thoughts. Therefore there is no free-will.

Because this is the condition of man, he cannot merit eternal life. The enslaved will cannot merit anything with God because it can do no good. The only thing which man deserves is eternal punishment. By this, Luther also shows that there is no free-will.

In connection with man's merit, Luther describes the true biblical uses of the law. The purpose of the law of God is not to show men how they can merit salvation, but the law is given so that men might see their sinfulness and their own unworthiness. The law condemns the works of man, for when he judges himself according to the law, man sees that he can do no good. Therefore, he is driven to the cross. The law also serves as a guide for what the believer should do. But the law does not say anything about the ability of man to obey it.

Not only should the idea of free-will be rejected because man is enslaved to sin, but also because of who God is and the relationship between God and man. A man cannot act independently of God. Analyzing what Erasmus said, Luther says that God is not God, but He is an idol, because the freedom of man rules. Everything depends on man for salvation. Therefore man can merit salvation apart from God. A God that depends on man is not God.

Denying this horrible view of Erasmus, Luther proclaims the sovereignty of God in salvation. Because God is sovereign in all things and especially in salvation, there is no free-will.

Luther begins with the fact that God alone has a free-will. This means only God can will or not will the law, gospel, sin, and death. God does not act out of necessity, but freely. He alone is independent in all He decrees and does. Therefore man cannot have a free-will by which he acts independently of God, because God is immutable, omnipotent, and sovereign over all. Luther says that God is omnipotent, knowing all. Therefore we do nothing of ourselves. We can only act according to God's infallible, immutable counsel.

The great error of free-willism is that it ascribes divinity to man's free-will. God is not God anymore. If man has a free-will, this implies God is not omnipotent, controlling all of our actions. Free-will also implies that God makes mistakes and changes. Man must then fix the mistakes. Over against this, Luther says there can be no free-will because we are under the "mastery of God." We can do nothing apart from God by our own strength because we are enslaved to sin.

Luther also understands the difficulties which follow from saying that God is sovereign so that all things happen necessarily. Luther states: "If God foreknows a thing, it necessarily happens." The problem between God's foreknowledge and man's freedom cannot be completely solved. God sovereignly decrees all things that happen, and they happen as He has decreed them necessarily. Does this mean that when a man sins, he sins because God has decreed that sin? Luther would answer, Yes. But God does not act contrary to what man is. Man cannot will good, but he only seeks after sinful lusts. The nature of man is corrupted, so that he is turned from God. But God works in men and in Satan according to what they are. The sinner is still under the control of the omnipotent God, "which means, since they are evil and perverted themselves, that when they are impelled to action by this movement of Divine omnipotence they do only that which is perverted or evil." When God works in evil men, evil results. But God is not evil. He is good. He does not do evil, but He uses evil instruments. The sin is the fault of those evil instruments and not the fault of God.

Luther asks himself the question, Why then did God let Adam fall so all men have his sin? The sovereignty of God must not be questioned, because God's will is beyond any earthly standard. Nothing is equal to God and His will. Answering the question above, Luther replies, "What God wills is not right because He ought or was bound, so to will, on the contrary, what takes place must be right because He so wills it." This is the hidden mystery of God's absolute sovereignty over all things.

God is sovereign over all things. He is sovereign in salvation. Is salvation a work of God and man? Luther answers negatively. God alone saves. Therefore salvation cannot be based on the merits of men's works. Man's obedience does not obtain salvation, according to Luther. Some become the sons of God "not by carnal birth, nor by zeal for the law, nor by any other human effort, but only by being born of God." Grace does not come by our own effort, but by the grace of Jesus Christ. To deny grace is to deny Jesus Christ. For Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Free-will says that it is the way, the truth, and the life. Therefore free-will denies Jesus Christ. This is a serious error.

God saves by His grace and Spirit in such away that the will is turned by Him. Only when the will is changed can it will and desire the good. Luther describes a struggle between God and Satan. Erasmus says man stands between God and Satan, who are as spectators waiting for man to make his choice. But Luther compares this struggle to a horse having two riders. "If God rides, it wills and goes where God goes…. If Satan rides, it wills and goes where Satan goes." The horse does not have the choice of which rider it wants. We have Satan riding us until God throws him off. In the same way, we are enslaved to sin until God breaks the power of sin. The salvation of a man depends upon the free work of God, who alone is sovereign and able to save men. Therefore this work in the will by God is a radical change whereby the willing of the soul is freed from sin. This beautiful truth stands over against Erasmus' grace, which gives man a booster shot in what he can do of himself.

This truth of the sovereignty of God in salvation is comforting to us. When man trusts in himself, he has no comfort that he is saved. Because man is enslaved to sin and because God is the sovereign, controlling all things according to His sovereign, immutable will, there is no free-will. The free-will of man does not save him. God alone saves.

The Battle of the Biblical Texts

The battle begins with the fundamental difference separating Luther and Erasmus in regard to the doctrine of Scripture. Erasmus defends the obscurity of Scripture. Basically, Erasmus says man cannot know with certainty many of the things in Scripture. Some things in God's Word are plain, while many are not. He applies the obscurity of Scripture to the controversy concerning the freedom of the will. In the camp of the hidden things of God, which include the hour of our death and when the last judgment will occur, Erasmus places "whether our will accomplishes anything in things pertaining to salvation." Because Scripture is unclear about these things, what one believes about these matters is not important. Erasmus did not want controversy, but he wanted peace. For him, the discussion of the hidden things is worthless because it causes the church to lose her love and unity.

Against this idea of the obscurity of Scripture, Luther defends the perspicuity of Scripture. Luther defines perspicuity as being twofold. The external word itself is clear, as that which God has written for His people. But man cannot understand this word of himself. Therefore Scripture is clear to God's people only by the work of the Holy Spirit in their hearts.

The authority of Scripture is found in God Himself. God's Word must not be measured by man, for this leads to paradoxes, of which Erasmus is a case in point. By saying Scripture is paradoxical, Erasmus denies the authority of God's Word.

Luther does not deny that some passages are difficult to understand. This is not because the Word is unclear or because the work of the Holy Spirit is weak. Rather, we do not understand some passages because of our own weakness.

If Scripture is obscure, then this opposes what God is doing in revelation. Scripture is light which reveals the truth. If it is obscure, then why did God give it to us? According to Luther, not even the difficult to understand doctrines such as the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the unpardonable sin are obscure. Therefore the issue of the freedom of the will is not obscure. If the Scripture is unclear about the doctrine of the will of man, then this doctrine is not from Scripture.

Because Scripture is clear, Luther strongly attacks Erasmus on this fundamental point. Luther says, "The Scriptures are perfectly clear in their teaching, and that by their help such a defense of our position may be made that our adversaries cannot resist." This is what Luther hoped to show to Erasmus. The teaching of Scripture is fundamental. On this point of perspicuity, Luther has Erasmus by the horns. Erasmus says Scripture is not clear on this matter of the freedom of the will, yet he appeals to the church fathers for support. The church fathers base their doctrine of the free-will on Scripture. On the basis of the perspicuity of Scripture, Luther challenges Erasmus to find even one passage that supports his view of free-will. Luther emphasizes that not one can be found.

Luther also attacks Erasmus when he says what one believes concerning the freedom of the will does not matter. Luther sums up Erasmus' position this way: "In a word, what you say comes to this: that you do not think it matters a scrap what any one believes anywhere, as long as the world is at peace." Erasmus says the knowledge of free-will is useless and non-essential. Over against this, Luther says, "then neither God, Christ, Gospel, faith, nor anything else even of Judaism, let alone Christianity, is left!" Positively, Luther says about the importance of the truth: "I hold that a solemn and vital truth, of eternal consequences, is at stake in the discussion." Luther was willing to defend the truth even to death because of its importance as that which is taught in Scripture.

A word must also be said about the differing views of the interpretation of Scripture. Erasmus was not an exegete. He was a great scholar of the languages, but this did not make him an able exegete. Erasmus does not rely on the Word of God of itself, but he turns to the church fathers and to reason for the interpretation of Scripture. In regard to the passage out of Ecclesiasticas which Erasmus uses, Luther says the dispute there is not over the teaching of Scripture, but over human reason. Erasmus generalizes from a particular case, saying that since a passage mentions willing, this must mean a man has a free-will. In this regard, Luther also says that Erasmus "fashions and refashions the words of God as he pleases." Erasmus was concerned not with what God says in His Word, but with what he wanted God to say.

Not only does Erasmus use his own reason to interpret Scripture, but following in the Roman Catholic tradition he goes back to the church fathers. His work is filled with many quotes from the church fathers' interpretation of different passages. The idea is that the church alone has the authority to interpret Scripture. Erasmus goes so far in this that Luther accuses Erasmus of placing the fathers above the inspired apostle Paul.

In contrast to Erasmus, Luther interprets Scripture with Scripture. Seeing the Word of God as inspired by the Holy Spirit, Luther also trusts in the work of the Holy Spirit to interpret that Word. One of the fundamental points of Reformed hermeneutics is that Scripture interprets Scripture. Luther follows this. When Luther deals with a passage, he does not take it out of context as Erasmus does. Instead, he examines the context and checks other passages which use the same words.

Also, Luther does not add figures or devise implications as Erasmus does. But rather, Luther sticks to the simple and plain meaning of Scripture. He says, "Everywhere we should stick to just the simple, natural meaning of the words, as yielded by the rules of grammar and the habits of speech that God has created among men." In the controversy over the bondage of the will, both the formal and material principles of the Reformation were at stake.

Now we must examine some of the important passages for each man. This is a difficult task because they both refer to so many passages. We must content ourselves with looking at those which are fundamental for the main points of the controversy.

Showing the weakness of his view of Scripture, Erasmus begins with a passage from an apocryphal book: Ecclesiasticas 15:14-17. Erasmus uses this passage to show the origin of the free will and that the will continues to be free after the fall.

Following this passage, Erasmus looks at many passages from the Old Testament to prove that man has a free-will. He turns to Genesis 4:6, 7, which records God speaking to Cain after he offered his displeasing sacrifice to God. Verse 7 says, "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door." Erasmus says that God sets before Cain a reward if he chooses the good. But if he chooses the evil, he will be punished. This implies that Cain has a will which can overcome evil and do the good.

From here, Erasmus looks at different passages using the word "choose." He says Scripture uses the word "choose" because man can freely choose. This is the only way it makes sense.

Erasmus also looks at many passages which use the word "if" in the Old Testament and also the commands of the Old Testament. For example, Isaiah 1:19,20 and 21:12 use the words "if … then." These conditions in Scripture imply that a man can do these things. Deuteronomy 30:14 is an example of a command. In this passage, Israel is commanded to love God with all their heart and soul. This command was given because Moses and the people had it in them to obey. Erasmus comes to these conclusions by implication.

Using a plethora of New Testament texts, Erasmus tries to support the idea of the freedom of the will. Once again, Erasmus appeals to those texts which speak of conditions. John 14:15 says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Also, in John 15:7 we read, "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." These passages imply that man is able to fulfill the conditions by his free-will.

Remarkably, Erasmus identifies Paul as "the champion of free choice." Referring to passages in which Paul exhorts and commands, Erasmus says that this implies the ability to obey. An example is I Corinthians 9:24,25: "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible." Man is able to obey this command because he has a free-will.

These texts can be placed together because Luther responds to them as a whole. Luther does treat many of these texts separately, but often comes back to the same point. Luther's response to Genesis 4:7 applies to all of the commands and conditions to which Erasmus refers: "Man is shown, not what he can do, but what he ought to do." Similarly, Luther responds to Deuteronomy 30:19: "It is from this passage that I derive my answer to you: that by the words of the law man is admonished and taught, not what he can do, but what he ought to do; that is, that he may know sin, not that he may believe that he has any strength." The exhortations and commands of the New Testament given through the apostle Paul are not written to show what we can do, but rather, after the gospel is preached, they encourage those justified and saved to live in the Spirit.

From these passages, Erasmus also taught that man merited salvation by his obedience or a man merited punishment by his disobedience, all of which was based on man's ability according to his free-will. Erasmus jumps from reward to merit. He does this in the conditional phrases of Scripture especially. But Luther says that merit is not proved from reward. God uses rewards in Scripture to exhort us and threaten us so that the godly persevere. Rewards are not that which a man merits.

The heart of the battle of the biblical texts is found in their treatment of passages from the book of Romans, especially Romans 9. Here, Erasmus treats Romans 9 as a passage which seems to oppose the freedom of the will but does not.

Erasmus begins his treatment of Romans 9 by considering the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. He treats this in connection with what Romans 9:18 says, "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will, he hardeneth." To interpret this passage, Erasmus turns to Jerome, who says, "God hardens when he does not at once punish the sinner and has mercy as soon as he invites repentance by means of afflictions." God's hardening and mercy are the results of what man does. God has mercy "on those who recognize the goodness of God and repent…." Also, this hardening is not something which God does, but something which Pharaoh did by not repenting. God was longsuffering to Pharaoh, not punishing him immediately, during which Pharaoh hardened his heart. God simply gave the occasion for the hardening of his heart. Therefore the blame can be placed on Pharaoh.

Although Erasmus claims to take the literal meaning of the passage, Luther is outraged at this interpretation. Luther objects:

Showing the absurdity of what Erasmus says, Luther says that this view means that God shows mercy when He sends Israel into captivity because then they are invited to repent; but when Israel is brought back from captivity, He hardens them by giving them the opportunity of hardening in His longsuffering. This is "topsy-turvy."

Positively, Luther explains this hardening of the heart of Pharaoh. God does this, therefore Pharaoh's heart is necessarily hardened. But God does not do something which is opposed to the nature of Pharaoh. Pharoah is enslaved to sin. When he hears the word of God through Moses which irritates his evil will, Pharaoh's heart is hardened. Luther explains it this way:

In his consideration of Jacob and Esau in Romans 9, Erasmus denies that this passage speaks of predestination. Erasmus says God does not hate anybody from eternity. But God's wrath and fury against sin are revealed on Esau because He knows the sins he will commit. In this connection, when Romans 9 speaks of God as the potter making a vessel of honor and dishonor, Erasmus says that God does this because of their belief and unbelief. Erasmus is trying to deny the necessity of the fulfillment of God's decree in order to support the freedom of the will.

Once again, Luther objects. Luther defends the necessity of consequence to what God decrees. Luther says, "If God foreknows a thing, it necessarily takes place." Therefore, in regard to Jacob and Esau, they did not attain their positions by their own free-will. Romans 9 emphasizes that they were not yet born and that they had not yet done good or evil. Without any works of obedience or disobedience, the one was master and the other was the servant. Jacob was rewarded not on the basis of anything he had done. Jacob was loved and Esau was hated even before the world began. Jacob loved God because God loved him. Therefore the source of salvation is not the free-will of man, but God's eternal decree. Paul is not the great champion of the freedom of the will.

In defense of the literal meaning of Romans 9:21-23, Luther shows that these verses oppose free-will as well. Luther examines the passage in the context of what Paul is saying. The emphasis in the earlier verses is not man, but what God does. He is sovereign in salvation. Here also, the emphasis is the potter. God is sovereign, almighty, and free. Man is enslaved to sin and acts out of necessity according to all God decrees. Luther shows that this is the emphasis of Romans 9 with sound exegetical work.

After refuting the texts to which Erasmus refers, Luther continues to show that Scripture denies the freedom of the will and teaches the sovereignty of God in salvation. He begins with Romans 1:18 which says, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." Luther says this means all men are ungodly and are unrighteous. Therefore, all deserve the wrath of God. The best a man can do is evil. Referring to Romans 3:9, Luther proves the same thing. Both Jews and Greeks are all under sin. They will and do nothing but evil. Man has no power to seek after good because there is none that doeth good (Ps. 14:3). Therefore, men are "ignorant of and despise God! Here is unbelief, disobedience, sacrilege, blasphemy towards God, cruelty and mercilessness towards one's neighbors and love of self in all things of God and man." Luther's conclusion to the matter is this: man is enslaved to sin.

Man cannot obtain salvation by his works. Romans 3:20 says that by the works of the law no man can be justified in God's sight. It is impossible for a man to merit salvation by his works. Salvation must be the sovereign work of God.

Luther thunders against free-will in connection with Romans 3:21-16 which proclaims salvation by grace alone through faith.58 Free-will is opposed to faith. These are two different ways of salvation. Luther shows that a man cannot be saved by his works, therefore it must be by faith in Jesus Christ. Justification is free, of grace, and without works because man possesses no worthiness for it.

Finally, we notice that Luther points out the comprehensive terms of the apostle Paul to show that there is no free-will in man. All are sinners. There is none that is righteous, and none that doeth good. Paul uses many others also. Therefore, justification and salvation are without works and without the law.

Over against the idea of free-will stands the clear teaching of Scripture. Luther clearly exegetes God's Word to show this. In summary, the truth of predestination denies the free-will of man. Because salvation is by grace and faith, salvation is not by works. Faith and grace are of no avail if salvation is by the works of man. Also, the only thing the law works is wrath. The law displays the unworthiness, sinfulness, and guilt of man. As children of Adam we can do no good. Luther argues along these lines to show that a free-will does not exist in man. Salvation is by grace alone.

The Main Issues and Implications of Each View

Luther is not interested in abstract theological concepts. He does not take up this debate with Erasmus on a purely intellectual level. The main issue is salvation: how does God save? Luther himself defines the issue on which the debate hinges:

So it is not irreligious, idle, or superfluous, but in the highest degree wholesome and necessary, for a Christian to know whether or not his will has anything to do in matters pertaining to salvation…. This is the hinge on which our discussion turns, the crucial issue between us.

Luther finds it necessary to investigate from Scripture what ability the will of man has and how this is related to God and His grace. If one does not know this, he does not know Christianity. Luther brings this against Erasmus because he shows no interest in the truth regarding how it is that some are saved.

Although the broad issue of the debate is how God saves, the specific issue is the sovereignty of God in salvation. The main issue for Luther is that man does not have a free-will by which he merits eternal life, but God sovereignly saves those whom He has chosen.

Luther is pursuing the question, "Is God, God?" This means, is God the omnipotent who reigns over all and who sovereignly saves, or does He depend on man? If God depends on man for anything, then He is not God. Therefore Luther asks the question of himself: Who will try to reform his life, believe, and love God? His answer, "Nobody." No man can do this of himself. He needs God. "The elect, who fear God, will be reformed by the Holy Spirit; the rest will perish unreformed." Luther defends this truth so vigorously because it is the heart of the gospel. God is the sovereign God of salvation. If salvation depends on the works of man, he cannot be saved.

Certain implications necessarily follow from the views of salvation defended by both men. First, we must consider the implications which show the falsehood of Erasmus' view of salvation.

When Erasmus speaks of merit, he is really speaking as a Pelagian. This was offensive to Erasmus because he specifically claimed that he was not a Pelagian. But Luther rightly points out that Erasmus says man merits salvation. According to the idea of merit, man performs an act separate from God, which act is the basis of salvation. He deserves a reward. This is opposed to grace. Therefore, if merit is at all involved, man saves himself. This makes Erasmus no different from the Pelagians except that the Pelagians are honest. Pelagians honestly confess that man merits eternal life. Erasmus tries to give the appearance that he is against the Pelagians although he really is a Pelagian. Packer and Johnston make this analysis:

According to Luther, Erasmus does not succeed in moving closer to the Augustinian position. Instead, he cheapens the purchase of God's grace. Luther says:

The Pelagians base salvation upon works; men work for their own righteousness. But Erasmus has cheapened the price which must be paid for salvation. Because only a small work of man is needed to merit salvation, God is not so great and mighty. Man only needs to choose God and choose the good. God's character is tarnished with the teaching of Erasmus. This semi-Pelagianism is worse than Pelagianism, for little is required to earn salvation. As Packer and Johnston say, "that is to belittle salvation and to insult God."

Another implication of the synergistic view of salvation held to by Erasmus is that God is not God. Because salvation depends upon the free-will of man according to Erasmus, man ascribes divinity to himself. God is not God because He depends upon man. Man himself determines whether or not he will be saved. Therefore the study of soteriology is not the study of what God does in salvation, but soteriology is a study of what man does with God to deserve eternal life.

This means God's grace is not irresistible, but man can reject the grace of God. Man then has more power than God. God watches passively to see what man will do.

Finally, a serious implication of the view of Erasmus is that he denies salvation is found in Jesus Christ alone. In his Diatribe, Erasmus rarely mentions Jesus Christ. This shows something is wrong. This does follow from what Erasmus says. The emphasis for Erasmus is what man must do to be saved and not on what God has done in Jesus Christ. Therefore Jesus Christ is not the only way of salvation and is not that important.

Over against the implications of Erasmus' view are the orthodox implications of Luther's view. God is sovereign in salvation. God elects His people, He sent Jesus Christ, and reveals Jesus Christ only to His people. It is God who turns the enslaved wills of His people so that they seek after Him. Salvation does not depend upon the work of man in any sense.

The basis of salvation is Jesus Christ alone. Because man is enslaved to sin, He must be turned from that sin. He must be saved from that sin through the satisfaction of the justice of God. A man needs the work of Jesus Christ on the cross to be saved. A man needs the new life of Jesus Christ in order to inherit eternal life. The merits of man do not save because he merits nothing with God. A man needs the merits of Jesus Christ for eternal life. A man needs faith by which he is united to Christ.

The source of this salvation is election. God saves only those whom He elects. Those who receive that new life of Christ are those whom God has chosen. God is sovereign in salvation.

Because God is sovereign in salvation, His grace cannot be resisted. Erasmus says that the reason some do not believe is because they reject the grace which God has given to them. Luther implies that God does not show grace to all men. Instead, He saves and shows favor only to those who are His children. In them, God of necessity, efficaciously accomplishes His purpose.

Because man cannot merit eternal life, saving faith is not a work of man by which he merits anything with God. Works do not justify a man. Salvation is the work of God alone in Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit. Faith is a gift of God whereby we are united to Jesus Christ and receive the new life found in Him. Even the knowledge and confidence as the activity of faith are the gifts of faith.

Finally, only with this view of salvation that God is sovereign can a man have comfort that he will be saved. Because God is sovereign in salvation and because His counsel is immutable, we cannot fall from the grace of God. He preserves those who are His children. Erasmus could not have this comfort because he held that man determines his own salvation.

The Importance of This Controversy Today

Although this controversy happened almost five hundred years ago, it is significant for the church today. The error of "semi-Pelagianism" is still alive in the church today. Much of the church world sides with Erasmus today, even among those who claim to be "Reformed." If a "Reformed" or Lutheran church denies what Luther says and sides with Erasmus, they despise the reformation of the church in the sixteenth century. They might as well go back to the Roman Catholic Church.

This controversy is important today because many deny that Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation. A man can worship heathen gods and be saved. This follows from making works the basis of salvation. Over against this error, Martin Luther proclaimed the sovereignty of God in salvation. He proclaimed Jesus Christ as the only way of salvation. We must do the same.

The error of Pelagianism attacks the church in many different forms. We have seen that in the history of the Protestant Reformed Churches. The sovereignty of God in salvation has been attacked by the errors of common grace and a conditional covenant. Over against these errors, some in the church world have remained steadfast by the grace of God. God does not love all. Nor does He show favor to all men in the preaching of gospel. Erasmus himself said that God showed grace to all men and God does not hate any man. The Arminians said the same thing at the time of the Synod of Dordt. Yet, men who defend common grace claim to be Reformed. They are not.

Also, in this synergistic view of salvation, we see the principles of the bilateral, conditional covenant view which is in many "Reformed" churches. If God and man work together in salvation, then the covenant must be a pact in which both God and man must hold up each one's end of the agreement. Over against this we must proclaim the sovereignty of God in salvation especially in regard to the covenant. The covenant is not conditional and bilateral. God works unconditionally and unilaterally in the covenant of grace.

Finally, we must apply the truth of the sovereignty of God defended by Luther to ourselves. We could say there is a Pelagian in all of us. We know God sovereignly saves, but we often show by our practice that we proudly want to sneak a few of our works in the back door. We must depend upon God for all things.

May this truth which Martin Luther defended, the truth of the sovereignty of God in salvation, be preserved in the church.


TOPICS: History; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: bondageofthewill; catholic; christalone; erasmus; faithalone; gracealone; luther; martinluther; protestant; reformation; savedbygracealone; scripturealone; solascriptura; thegoodnews
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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus; annalex; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; qua; AlbionGirl; blue-duncan; ...
kosta: So, are you now saying that one must believe in God the Father and God the Son to be saved?

FK: Yes, absolutely and categorically. I confess that I am mystified that you would ask

I had my reasons, but you left out God the Spirit Whom I included. Do you not believe the Holy Spirit to be co-equal with the Father and the Son?

I don't know of anywhere in the Bible that says that baptism CAUSES righteousness. I thought that's what you all believed

Baptism doesn't cause righteousness -- it's not magic. It's a sacrament. You are "brought" into the Church under grace.

Yes, they accepted Christ as a future Messiah

You will have to show me some scriptual evidence for that, FK. Judaism does not teach that man needs to be saved, so why would the OT righteous have believed it?

You have still not answered my question a few posts ago why would the OT righteous have been in hell if they were ritghteous.

5,301 posted on 04/29/2006 5:44:07 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
I have no idea why you would be using the source the Gospels did not use.

You said the Hebrews did not look for a redeemer; I used the Hebrew text to show that they did.

5,302 posted on 04/29/2006 8:12:15 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings
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To: 1000 silverlings
You said the Hebrews did not look for a redeemer; I used the Hebrew text to show that they did

Study Jewish theology and you will find that they do not believe man needs to be redeemed/saved. The particular verse in Job in your English translation of the Hebrew OT is an abbreviated one -- leaving out some crucial details to wit (a) the Holy One was about to help Job for his (b) present sufferings.

Your version says something completely different: it changes the Holy One to a "redeemer" and also implies that Job's sufferings will be removed in the "latter day" (other versions hint at the distant future even the end of times).

This difference clearly shows how various man-chosen variations of the Bible lead one to read and "believe" different things. The Septuagint was written two hundred years before Christ for Alexandrian Jews, translated from the Hebrew original by 72 rabbis. The Gospels quote from the Septuagint in over 95% of the cases. I place my confidence in them. You place your confidence in a text that was redacted by rabbinical Judaism that rejected Christianity.

5,303 posted on 04/29/2006 9:29:48 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper
Who has ever said that the OT Jews who were of the elect were sent to hell?

The Apostle's Creed, for starters. David, Job, the Psalmists all went to the Hades (Sheol). Perhaps Genesis 37:34-35 "

So Jacob (A)tore his clothes, and put sackcloth on his loins and mourned for his son many days.

Then all his sons and all his daughters arose to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, "Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son." So his father wept for him.

From the OT readings it is clear that no one comes back from it until the Lord resurrects them:

Or Job 14:13 -- the righteous Job knew he was going to Sheol.

Now, you said that the OT righteous believed in the future Chirst. But all Jews believed that God is the ultimate Savior, except that they believed only in what we would call God the Father. Isa 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me."

So, when I say that all Jews believe in the same God as we do, then all those who believed, by faith alone, should have been saved, even if they did not believe in Chirst, even if they did not see Christ as the same God.

According to you, only those who believe in Jesus can be saved. That means that those who were OT righteous could not be saved, which is why they were in the Sheol and had to be rescued by Christ. But if they were righteous, why did they need rescuing? Obviously, faith alone does not save, for the righteous, including David and a "perect man" in God's eyes -- Job had -- all had the faith, yet they were not spared. They all went down and had to be rescued by Christ.

5,304 posted on 04/29/2006 10:47:32 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
If I believe the story [of the flood] to be true, then I must believe that God was surprised and disappointed, and felt stabbed in the back. Then I must believe that He didn't know. That He didn't see it coming. And that I don't believe!

I don't think we have to throw out the baby with the bathwater. We both know it is not in God's nature to be surprised. We also know that it is not in His nature to be ignorant, as the text makes Him look in the garden (Adam where are you?) It is a recurring theme. So, I think those kind of things can be safely interpreted without throwing out the underlying story.

-- or, worse, that He intentionally created man so He could drown the whole wicked lot along with innocent animals.

Didn't God create us to eat innocent animals? :)

5,305 posted on 04/29/2006 1:23:54 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; annalex; blue-duncan
For example, I think there is a reason we are not taught to Baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and Paul. The truth of the Trinity is not dependent on Tradition, but on reasonable inference on what is in scripture.

FK, I know you don't like this, but the simple historical fact of the matter is that Christ SAID those words of Matthew 28 first, they were passed along ORALLY to the future followers of Christ, and only later, perhaps 20-30 years later, only THEN, did those words get WRITTEN. The simple truth is that the Apostles wrote down the Gospels only many years later. The Christian concept of Baptism did NOT come from the Bible, but from Christ, to the Apostles and given ORALLY. Thus, your logic is mistaken. The Scriptures do NOT dictate what the Church taught, but the Scriptures merely relate what was already being taught...

Thus is Sola Scriptura a farce.

Regards

5,306 posted on 04/29/2006 2:20:39 PM PDT by jo kus (I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart...Psalm 119:32)
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; blue-duncan; 1000 silverlings
Question asked: So, are you now saying that one must believe in God the Father and God the Son to be saved?

FK answered: Yes, absolutely and categorically. I confess that I am mystified that you would ask.

Acts 4 does not require that a man specifically MUST KNOW Jesus Christ, but that there is no other name on the earth that will save. Other religions do not save, although they might prepare someone for the Gospel. When a person loves, they abide in Christ, even if they do not "know" intellectually about Jesus. By choosing to do God's will, to love, even if unaware of the NT Scriptures, this person is acting in the faith given by the Spirit, who blows where He wills. Recall, the Spirit moves even among the Gentiles to write a Law onto their hearts, says Paul in Romans 2.

I believe this was addressed before. God desires ALL men to be saved. But God is not bound by the sacrament of Baptism. He can send His Spirit to those who are open to this Law written in their hearts. Thus, the Native American Indians of the 500's AD have Jesus Christ as their Savior, IF they abided in Him through love.

As I think Jo Kus has correctly pointed out, we see the concept of "salvation" very differently.

What you call "salvation", we call "initial justification". Thus, when you say we are saved by faith alone, we say we are justified by faith from God alone although we do not deny that man must also be open to this gift of faith given by God. (Man can reject God's good gifts) We do not believe that one will go to heaven based on faith alone, as the Bible clearly says there are other things necessary AND that people CAN fall after this initial justification. This confusion of terms causes us to sometimes speak past each other.

Regards

5,307 posted on 04/29/2006 2:35:15 PM PDT by jo kus (I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart...Psalm 119:32)
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To: Forest Keeper
My understanding of your view is that faith is ULTIMATELY man-generated.

Where did you get that idea from? Faith comes from God as a gift, as Eph 2:8-9 states, among others.

With that faith comes also love and perseverance.

Both Paul and James separate faith and love and persevernace. They do not come together. Thus, we say that love must be added to faith to achieve our eternal reward - which comes from God and accepted by man.

So the words of men are equal to the words of God? Your three-legged stool just lost a leg. :)

Are the teachings of the Apostles from men? If you can answer that question in the affirmative, as the Bible does, then you SHOULD be able to understand that oral Apostolic teachings are from GOD. Thus, coming from God, they bear the same "weight" as Scriptures. Scriptures do not contain the entire Word of God.

It sure looks like He [I am not sure if you are refering to Satan or Jesus here] used a lot of scriptures here, but not much Tradition. In fact, NO tradition. What else do you think He used?

Look more closely. Note that the devil and Jesus both used Scriptures - that tells us that Scripture can be twisted to suit one's personal needs. Thus, the need for Tradition, which gives us the correct interpretation. Christ was giving us Tradition by stating the correct interpretation and utilization of the Scriptures.

So your interpretation is that when Paul praised the Bereans because they tested his say-so against scripture he didn't really mean that. Instead, he only meant to praise them because they gave Paul an honest hearing. I see. That silly scripture has confounded me again.

That's OK. No one is generally infallible. That is why I rely on the Church, which IS infallible in matters of faith and morals. The fact of the matter is that Scripture reading is not complimented, but the acceptance of the message. The Thessalonians ALSO read the Scriptures. So did other Jews. What happened? Isn't Scripture so clear for even a child can read it and understand it???

Putting aside your total error concerning our belief about man's responsibility

You have told me time and time again that God leads man infallibly to choose good or evil. If man has no free will, how is man responsible for his actions?

My discussion regarding reading Scriputes through a particular tradition is not complicated. We ALL have our ideas of the basics of the faith. Protestants believe that man is totally corrupt after the fall and remains in sin even AFTER his regeneration. Their is no REAL regeneration, we are merely covered with alien justice of Christ. With this paradigm, you read the Scriptures - thinking that man cannot possibly do anything to prepare or cooperate with salvation. Even when Scriptures clearly point out this is false, you change the meaning of the text or ignore it. Your paradigm, then, is based on the teachings of Calvin and Luther, not on the Scripture as taught by the Catholic Church from the Apostles.

I never said you couldn't interpret scripture either. I said that you think the Church is the only Authority, and gave you credit enough that you would not claim to be an Authority.

As I have just said, we look at Scripture through a particular paradigm. That there is an "analogy of Faith", or an "economy of salvation". For example, we know that God is a Trinity of Persons, but with one Divine Will. This is not explained fully in Scriptures, nor does the Scriptures make this clear UNLESS YOU ALREADY ARE AWARE OF THAT! You would NOT be able to come to that conclusion UNLESS you already were taught that and were pointed out the verses and how to read them a certain way, or ignore other verses that might contradict them. For example, there are many verses that an Adoptionist could point to and say that Jesus was the Adopted Son of God the Father - only taking up the mantle of divinity upon His Baptism. Or that Jesus was subordinate to the Father. WE know that this means something else - that Christ was only subordinate in terms of His humanity. But you won't come to that understanding with your King James Version by yourself.

Protestantism is not monolithic. There is no club to be kicked out of. So what? Individual Protestants are not the authority in Protestantism, God always is.

You're dodging! Basically what you are saying is "FK's belief are the Word of God"...When you say "Protestants are not the authority, God is", that is baloney, because God doesn't "speak" in that manner. You are presuming, along with all of your non-monolithic brothers, that God speaks to YOU personally - and often contradictorily. I would say that God is not speaking to all of you...

If you were a Protestant and you felt that the Spirit had led you to believe that there were only two persons in the Godhead, then I would strongly counsel you, and show you the truth of what you must believe in as a Protestant, the Bible.

And we'd argue and get nowhere, since you have no authority over me. Nor can you "take it to the Church", since there IS no "visible" Church in your eyes, just the invisible one. I could certainly bring out enough verses to prove that either the Spirit or the Son is NOT God. This is why Apostolic Tradition is so important.

What? Whose fundamental stance are you talking about. Mine as an individual? Mine as a Protestant? Mine as a Southern Baptist? In none of these cases am I told how to interpret scripture. None.

Yes you are. You are told that Genesis is to believed as literal history and CANNOT be taken as allegory. Otherwise, you are told, how can we know ANYTHING to be historical? Your whole concept of Biblical inerrancy comes to a crashing thud if your literal interpretation is disproved. Thus, this idiotic notion from Young Earth Creationists who desperately try to show that science proves the earth is 6000 years old - which the Bible NEVER states or even hints at! It is people like these who make Christians look like they are afraid of science and prefer to live in a dreamworld.

You claim there are only a dozen or so verses set in stone, but that ignores the Catholic lens which you must peer through for any understanding. That lens affects ALL SCRIPTURE. Effectively, then, you have drastically less freedom than you attempt to portray.

I have no problems with interpreting Genesis as allegory. I have no problem with seeing Jonah as a parable, or Esther as an historical novel. And on many other issues, the Church has not "defined" our faith precisely. Sure, the Church has defined many things. But we also realize that God works through His Church to bring us to the knowledge of the Truth. We are very appreciative when the Church defines something, since now we KNOW what is the Truth. You, on the other hand, cannot know if you are correct, or the guy across the street in the 2nd Baptist Church of Main Street is correct. This is quite scary, to be honest. Sure, there are some particulars that we are told is Truth. Is that a problem?

Regards

5,308 posted on 04/29/2006 3:14:09 PM PDT by jo kus (I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart...Psalm 119:32)
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To: jo kus; kosta50; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; 1000 silverlings; blue-duncan; AlbionGirl
Thus, the Native American Indians of the 500's AD have Jesus Christ as their Savior, IF they abided in Him through love.

Very confusing because this is something Kosta50 denies of the Old Testament Jews.

Apparently the church of Rome and the Eastern Orthodox haven't bridged this particular gap.

5,309 posted on 04/29/2006 6:56:24 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Forest Keeper
We also know that it is not in His nature to be ignorant, as the text makes Him look in the garden (Adam where are you?)

Not at all. God was being being humble and Fatherly with Adam. He gave Adam every opportunity to repent.

In case of the Flood He was "sorry" and "grieved" that mankind turned the way they did -- I don't think so.

Didn't God create us to eat innocent animals?

No. "Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you" (Genesis 1:12)

Even after God expelled Adam and Eve from the Garden, He said: "Cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you will eat of it. All the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field" (Gen 3:17-18)

It is only later that man began killing animals, as the rest of the creation became corrupt by our Ancetral Fall. In fact, the Judaic idea of peace and prosperity to be established by a warrior-king meshiach (messiah) on earth would include cessation of hunting even by predatory animals.

By the way, this is probably why the Orthodox strict fast forbids any animal products for 40 days prior to Nativity (i.e. "Christmas") and Pascha or Resurrection (i.e. "Easter"), and why monastics do not eat meat.

5,310 posted on 04/29/2006 9:28:48 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: jo kus
You don't know anyone like that? God's promises are for those who persevere in Christ, not someone in a moment of emotion "take on Christ as the Lord of their lives", which many times fails to materialize into reality...

I don’t know anyone who elects himself. … I disagree that God’s promises are null and void until after death, which it sounds like you are saying. I believe that they were effective when made. What good are His promises if they apply to no one during life?

You are misunderstanding my question. If man sins PERIOD in this life, which God allows, why wouldn't He allow man to sin more often, even to sin grievous and fall away from Him? The fact that man CAN sin tells us that God doesn't actively override our will to prevent us from sinning or falling away. ANY sin is a sin against His infinite justice.

Yes, any sin is against God and His justice. However, the reason that God’s allowance of one sin does not carry over to the allowance of such sin as to fall away, is that God specifically promises His elect that He will not let that happen. He makes no such promise for a single sin. God must, and does, keep all of His promises.

Define what you mean by "Justice". How "just" would God be if He didn't provide ALL men an opportunity to be saved from himself?

God would be perfectly just if He did this. He would also be just if no one were saved at all. You appear to be applying man’s sense of justice to God. You are obligating Him to be “fair” with you as you define fair. In reality, God sets all the standards and God makes all the rules. His justice is self-defining, and not subject to our scrutiny.

That fact of the matter is, whether you understand or agree with it, is that God desires all men to be saved. It is clearly written and we must clearly accept this as fact. Elsewhere, such as in Peter, the same thing is written. God died for the sake of ALL men, for the sin of the WORLD. Why would God die for the sin of the world if He only intended on saving a percentage of men?

That is a perfectly reasonable question. From what we know is true, the only answer has to be that either God did NOT die for the sin of the whole world, or that He did NOT intend on saving all men, or both. If you believe that God does the actual saving, then to hold otherwise is to say that God failed to achieve His intention. I believe that diminishes God.

God's plan IS accomplished - He STILL desires ALL men to be saved - but at the same time, He desires them to freely choose God. This falls in the same category as God desires all men to obey His commandments. It is a signified will, not a decreed will.

OK, that sounds alright. I was focusing on your use of “intention”, because that signifies something more to me than a signified will. But, if you are saying that it’s all the same, then OK.

Thus, the predestined don't merit anything, while the reprobate earn hell. As I have said time and time again, God does not actively choose the reprobate, AND God actively chooses the rest to be the predestined, since God desires all men be saved - but He will not save those who do NOT desire to be saved.

I agree with the first statement. The way I look at it, if God actively chooses the elect, then doesn’t He implicitly also choose the reprobate by not choosing them to be of the elect? Doesn’t He choose them by default? Perhaps you and I arrive at very similar results, but we use chicken vs. egg reasoning to get there. When you say that God will not save those who do not want to be saved, I can say that is a true statement. But I believe it is true because God does not grace them to want to be saved.

Thus, every act of an unregenerated man is not sinful, then, is it?

Well, in the normal way we think of sin, I would say “Sure”. If, however, someone said that sin is any act outside of God or apart from God, then the answer might be different. Our experience is clear that unregenerated men do acts which we would consider “good”, in the normal sense.

Man is transformed. But according to Protestant theology, man remains unchanged, a lump of crap, covered with the righteousness of Christ. Now, you are saying that man's will is changed for goodness?

I do think the elect are covered with the righteousness of Christ. Righteousness is imputed rather than infused. I didn’t say that man’s will is changed so that he can choose to actually be righteous on his own account. I said that man’s will is changed (from stone to flesh) so that God’s plan of salvation for His elect is accomplished.

When have I said we must do "x" or "y" to earn salvation? Our actions determine whether we are rejecting Christ, …

Well, do we persevere with a free will or not? If you say that God causes the perseverance of His elect, then OK. But, if we persevere through our own actions, then why isn’t that earning salvation?

Your discussion regarding the Passion has given me cause to question your concept of WHY He did it. It appears that you think God was 'forced' to crucify His only Son! Perhaps I have judged wrongly, but your posts seem to point in that direction.

I just don’t think Christ would have given up His life if it was not necessary to accomplish His objective of saving us. I don’t think He was forced because He set up the whole thing from the beginning. He ordained that man would be fallen, and require redemption. He knew that man would not be able to accomplish it on his own, so He ordained that He would do it for us. He didn't owe anything to anyone, it was His choice.

I assure you, I am still Jo Kus :-)

I’m glad to hear it. I would have missed our conversations. :)

5,311 posted on 04/29/2006 9:36:58 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: jo kus; Forest Keeper
The Christian concept of Baptism did NOT come from the Bible, but from Christ, to the Apostles and given ORALLY. Thus, your logic is mistaken. The Scriptures do NOT dictate what the Church taught, but the Scriptures merely relate what was already being taught...

Very well put, Jo. It is the sequence of transmission of the word of God that the Protestants actually deny -- which is a farce because it is so blatantly wrong.

As I mentioned earlier, the only reason the Church combined inspired texts into what we call the New Testament was to make sure the 200-plus Gnostic "gospels" never got confused with and incorporated into the genuine word of God. The Church selected inspired works based on the knowledge given to the Apostles by word of mouth. That which the Apostles taught in public were the major criteria for inclusion.

That means that the Patriarch of Antioch, St. Ignatius, who was made bishop by none other than St. Peter in person, knew what we now read in the Bible by learning it from the mouth of St. Peter and not reading it in the "Bible" mainly because the only Bible in those days was the Old Testament. The New Testament did not see the light of the day for another three hundred years.

5,312 posted on 04/29/2006 9:54:06 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; jo kus; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; 1000 silverlings; blue-duncan; AlbionGirl
jo kus: Thus, the Native American Indians of the 500's AD have Jesus Christ as their Savior, IF they abided in Him through love

Dr E: Very confusing because this is something Kosta50 denies of the Old Testament Jews

I am not denying it. I am merely asking why were the OT righteous in hell if they were righteous.

If they were rigtheous, that was in spite of their religion and not because of it. To the best of my knowledge, there is no instance in the OT that teaches to love your enemies. And I don't remember a single one among the OT righteous professing that idea.

Jo is absolutely right that most religions of the world have what the Greeks call "sporoi" or "seeds" of truth and that the Spirit is not limited to whom He will move to love and to abide in Christ even if he or she does not know Christ by name.

God is certainly not limited as to who will be saved.

5,313 posted on 04/29/2006 10:18:54 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
To the best of my knowledge, there is no instance in the OT that teaches to love your enemies.
You are right. The closest is Leviticus 19:17-18:

You shall not bear hatred for your brother in your heart. Though you may have to reprove your fellow man, do not incur sin because of him. Take no revenge and cherish no grudge against your fellow countrymen. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.
Jesus extended this precept beyond countrymen to enemies.
5,314 posted on 04/29/2006 10:37:40 PM PDT by Bohemund
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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus
But, if we persevere through our own actions, then why isn’t that earning salvation?

We are "initiated" into the Church by patism and "justified" by faith that is God-given. However, man must humble himself to believe in God. If you try to "reason" and say I can never understand God, what good is believing something I can't see or understand, then you are placing man's pride and arrogance in the way and blocking or rejecting God's overtures; you are making the man the final arbiter as to what is possible.

Being "saved" in Orthodoxy (and I am quite sure in Catholicism too) means "how Christ-like" you are -- hitting the mark. How Christ-like is sufficient? As much as possible! That is whay we venerate our saints, people who have attained that "holiness" about them through works of faith, through meekness, through renunciation of everything worldly, through humility, through love, through self-sacrifice, etc. These are the people in whom we recognize the light of God, through whom we hear the words of God, by whose works we see the blessings of God.

Obviously, when you accept faith that is God-given, you do not instantly become Christ-like. Regaining the likeness of God we lost through Adam is a process (we call it theosis, the Catholics sanctification) that combines our free will to follow God and asking God to lead us; it literally means "deification" in Greek, or "becoming holy" in Latin.

5,315 posted on 04/29/2006 10:39:18 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Bohemund
Jesus extended this precept beyond countrymen to enemies

Yes, but "just" is ciritcal. Thank you for this excellent post. Another fine exmaple that the OT is not a full revelation, and that Christ brought it to its intended fullness.

5,316 posted on 04/29/2006 10:43:58 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper
I don’t know anyone who elects himself. … I disagree that God’s promises are null and void until after death, which it sounds like you are saying. I believe that they were effective when made. What good are His promises if they apply to no one during life?

So you didn’t elect yourself? It sounds like you know infallibly that you WILL be of the elect, thus you elected yourself. I don’t find your name in the Bible as one of the elected! I disagree that we have that knowledge of the future. We are justified currently, but that doesn’t mean we will be saved for heaven, as some of the previously justified have fallen away. God’s promises are not null and void until after death! John’s Gospel makes it clear that we are to have “eternal life” [Christ] even now – meaning, God’s abiding presence. This doesn’t mean we will live forever, but that “eternal life” [Christ] dwells within us UNLESS we fall into sin. Eternal life [Christ] cannot dwell within us if we are slaves to sin. God’s promises are conditional – meaning that we must not reject Him. He doesn’t randomly choose the elect, but foresees who will reject Him.

Yes, any sin is against God and His justice. However, the reason that God’s allowance of one sin does not carry over to the allowance of such sin as to fall away, is that God specifically promises His elect that He will not let that happen. He makes no such promise for a single sin. God must, and does, keep all of His promises.

But we don’t know who the elect are. To make the claim is presumption. To me, you ARE self-elect. Yes, His elect will persevere. That is why we are told to persevere. If we were infallibly chosen, from our point of view, what exactly is the point of perseverance? In this sort of theology, why does Jesus tell us to beware, and to persevere until the end? If I “know” I am of the elect, can’t I take a passive attitude towards final salvation, since it is God’s righteousness that covers me anyway? Again, I see absolutely no point in sanctification or perseverance in classic Protestantism. At least Wesley makes more sense then Luther or Calvin.

I wrote : Define what you mean by "Justice". How "just" would God be if He didn't provide ALL men an opportunity to be saved from himself?

God would be perfectly just if He did this. He would also be just if no one were saved at all.

Not if HE says that He desires ALL men to be saved and throughout the Scriptures says that He will draw men to Him and will provide the means for men to be saved.

You appear to be applying man’s sense of justice to God. You are obligating Him to be “fair” with you as you define fair. In reality, God sets all the standards and God makes all the rules. His justice is self-defining, and not subject to our scrutiny.

We define justice, and to us, it means a particular thing. Thus, to say that God is “just” is to apply our terms of “justice” to God. Otherwise, we’d call God something else. God sets the standards, but this doesn’t mean He overthrows the concept of justice because He is God. If God’s justice is as you define it, then it is not justice in human terms, and we can no longer call God “just” using our vocabulary. Otherwise, what is the meaning of “God’s justice” to men?

I wrote Why would God die for the sin of the world if He only intended on saving a percentage of men?

That is a perfectly reasonable question. From what we know is true, the only answer has to be that either God did NOT die for the sin of the whole world, or that He did NOT intend on saving all men, or both. If you believe that God does the actual saving, then to hold otherwise is to say that God failed to achieve His intention. I believe that diminishes God.

And I twist Scripture? Clearly, the Scripture tell us that God died for ALL sin, just as Adam’s sin universally affects ALL men. Was Christ’s action inferior in scope to Adam? God does the actual saving, but His actual saving is conditional on His creation’s rejection of Him. We do agree that God is love, correct. IS. God CANNOT force man to reciprocate freely. Thus, if God desires to share His divine nature with all men, it must come from a freely given will to not reject God. This does not diminish God! This makes God magnanimous, a kingly attribute.

Thus, the predestined don't merit anything, while the reprobate earn hell. As I have said time and time again, God does not actively choose the reprobate, AND God actively chooses the rest to be the predestined, since God desires all men be saved - but He will not save those who do NOT desire to be saved.

if God actively chooses the elect, then doesn’t He implicitly also choose the reprobate by not choosing them to be of the elect? Doesn’t He choose them by default? Perhaps you and I arrive at very similar results, but we use chicken vs. egg reasoning to get there. When you say that God will not save those who do not want to be saved, I can say that is a true statement. But I believe it is true because God does not grace them to want to be saved.

No, God is giving man the freedom of choosing His great gifts. God deeply desires our acceptance of them. God does not choose the reprobate. God’s signified will is that all men are saved – but He doesn’t force men into heaven. God’s wrath is manifest by His turning from those who reject Him.

The inherent problem of our disagreement is our view of anthropology. You believe that man is totally corrupt, that man cannot do anything BUT sin. We have already established that even an unregenerate man can do good deeds. You also believe that even AFTER regeneration, man continues to be sin, and is only externally covered with Christ’s righteousness. Thus, you rely entirely on God’s actions to save. There is no cooperation that man can do or is expected to do. This view is based on the incorrect concept of Adam’s original nature. Protestants believe that Adam was created with no supernatural capabilities. Everything that God gave Adam was his by right. Catholics, on the other hand, believe that God created Adam with a human nature endowed with supernatural characteristics – Sanctifying Grace. This was something added to human nature as a GIFT. It is not part of human nature.

Thus, during the fall, Protestants say that man’s totally human nature was corrupted entirely, because the “supernatural” characteristics were lost – which were really part of human nature that was his right. Catholics say that Adam lost the supernatural life given as a gift to him. We are not neo-Pelagians. Sanctifying Grace was a gift given to Adam, not something that was owed him as part of his human nature. Thus, during the Fall, when Adam lost this supernatural grace, he lost that gift that was not part of his human nature. In addition, since the grace was no longer there, Adam’s flesh was no longer subject to the spirit of Adam, the will and intellect. Sin entered the world, and concupiscence remains, the desire to do the ill.

This is a fundamental difference, this anthropology. Since Protestants believe that Adam’s original nature is totally corrupted because of this loss of grace that was part of his nature, there is no point in trying to say that man can cooperate or that man can do anything regarding salvation. Catholics, though, believe that this Sanctifying Grace that Adam was given is given anew upon Baptism. Not in the same degree, but in the same mode. The Scriptures tell us that we are a new creation, regenerated, born anew from above. It is Catholic (I am not discounting Orthodox, as this teaching came before the Schism) teaching that makes sense of Scriptures regarding man and his capabilities once he is regenerated. Now that we are born from above, a new creation, in the mold of the Second Adam, we CAN cooperate. We have the supernatural gift of grace within us. Internally. Not only externally in a legal sense. WE ARE CHANGED!!! Thus, we CAN be led by God to do the good that He commands. We CAN become righteous in God’s eyes. We CAN repent and love. And these are counted as merit in God’s eyes – because we can also freely reject these things. By choosing to do the good, we are only practicing the gifts given to us. But just the same, because we are a new creation, WE are in Christ, we abide in Him. Thus, God has not only declared our righteousness, He has made it effective in reality because we now, through faith working through love, are pleasing to Him. Against Luther, we are no longer sinners internally while graced externally. Internally, we indeed are changed.

I just don’t think Christ would have given up His life if it was not necessary to accomplish His objective of saving us. I don’t think He was forced because He set up the whole thing from the beginning. He ordained that man would be fallen, and require redemption. He knew that man would not be able to accomplish it on his own, so He ordained that He would do it for us. He didn't owe anything to anyone, it was His choice.

It was the Father’s will that Jesus would obey the Father and lay down His life for mankind. The only reason why the Passion was necessary was because it was decreed by God. It was not an act that God owed anyone. God choose this act willingly, not owing anything to the devil or some other force. What other way could have shown God’s will in a more loving manner than the Passion?

Regards

5,317 posted on 04/30/2006 9:55:55 AM PDT by jo kus (I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart...Psalm 119:32)
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To: kosta50; jo kus; annalex; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; blue-duncan
FK: "When I want to know what the Bible really means I try to find out what God thought it meant."

And who do you ask? Yourself?

Of course not. That would be leaving Biblical interpretation in the hands of fallible men. Perish the thought. God already gives us His interpretation in other scripture. Some rely on that, and some rely on men.

Everything in the Church can be traced to the word of God and corroborated in the Bible.

Really? You mean things like papal authority, and the filioque? Please show me the corroboration.

Again, the Church did not compile the New Testament so that the Reformed may discover the "true" church 15,000 years later, but because of some 200 false Gnostic "gospels" launched by Satan and his demons.

So it was the Church that decided to create the New Testament, and it was because of the Gnostics? Seeing as how you don't mention God at all in the creation of the NT, I guess we really have the Gnostics to thank for its creation. How did the Church get God to agree to inspire the Church's word?

The Church did not need the New Testament to exist.

Of this I have no doubt. :)

5,318 posted on 04/30/2006 4:11:36 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus; kosta50; annalex; Dr. Eckleburg; qua

I do not believe that there is any hard evidence that even the earliest Gnostic "gospels" (those of "Peter" and "Thomas") predated the canonical Gospels -- or at least the first three. There is furthermore no evidence in Christian tradition or really any internal evidence that the writing of those first three Gospels happened as a reaction to the writing of Gnostic gospels.

Modern scholars such as Elaine Pagels, who are very hostile to traditional Christianity, are categorical in stating that Gnosticism came first, and then big bad orthodox Christianity with its hierarchical structure and patriarchal attitudes came along and ruined it all. I think that the anti-Christian partisan nature of such theories is fairly obvious, and we should be careful about accepting such things as the "Gospel truth" (forgive the pun.)

There is certainly some internal evidence that the Gospel of St. John was in part written specifically to refute the claims of docetism, an early form of Gnosticism, but the tradition of the Church is clear that the main thing that St. John was doing was conveying many events and teachings from the life of Christ that were not included in the first three Gospels. As the last of the Apostles, he was in a position to "fill in the blanks" for the Church before he died. In addition, he was placing the life of Christ into a more specifically theological context in the sense of knowing God -- hence us calling him St. John the Theologian in the Orthodox Church. And much of that theology can only be thought of as a reaction to Gnosticism by stretching things.

A very strong case has been made that St. Matthew and St. Luke wrote their Gospels primarily for the simple purpose of catechesis. The need for such catechesis would have been very early in the life of the Church, especially as the Church grew beyond the ability of those who had personally seen and heard Christ to visit all of the Christian communities. Such catechesis would also have been necessary whether or not there was heresy in the Church, and that need would have predated the rise of Gnosticism. Converts would be coming from paganism, Judaism, etc... and would need to be taught the faith.

Fr. John Romanides has written about this writing of the Gospels as catechesis both in terms of the inner traditions of the Orthodox Church and in terms of how those Gospels (especially those of Sts. Matthew and Luke) are structured in a literary sense -- a parallelism that contrasts over and over the things of sin, death and the devil against the things of God.

It is interesting that in his writings to his spiritual children, St. Ignaty (Brianchaninov) stressed that the two most important books of the Bible to know intimately first are the Gospels of Sts. Matthew and Luke. They are certainly the Gospels that are most heavily emphasized in the Sunday lectionary of the Church. All of this reflects a residual memory of the primacy of these two Gospels as basic catechesis.

Another very obvious reasons for the Gospels to be written was to have writings to be read liturgically at public worship. The ancient tradition of the synagogue was built around readings of the Scriptures, and it was inevitable that Christians would want to have the words of Christ read to them as a part of their worship.

The very writing of these four Gospels plus the book of Acts is seen by some as a self-conscious creation of a Christian Pentateuch. I recently was told, although I have not found any back-up for it, that recent archaeology discovered a portrayal of the Hebrew Pentateuch and the Christian Pentateuch side by side, so whether or not it was specifically designed as such, there may have been those who saw the parallels very early on.

Likewise, the Epistles were written certainly in part to correct errors, but they are a great variety of errors -- Judaizing, paganism, and just plain sinfulness. The need for these books would have been clear regardless of any specific heresy such as Gnosticism, since we are fallen. But even in the Epistles, there is a lot of teaching and exhorting that has nothing to do with correcting error. I certainly don't see a whole lot in the Epistles that are a reaction against Gnosticism.

Regarding St. Ignatius of Antioch, there are numerous places in his letters where he seems to quote the New Testament, so I don't think that one can categorically state that the New Testament was unknown to him. It is certainly possible that his words are simply drawing on the same oral tradition that the New Testament writers drew on, but unless one wants, again, to claim that the New Testament wasn't written by the Apostles (contradicting the Church's tradition), it would be at least as likely that he was quoting the New Testament. There is certainly no compelling reason to believe that none of the NT writings were known to him.

One interesting thing that does arise from looking at St. Ignatius is that the Gospel that he seems to quote is that of Matthew. If Mark had been the first Gospel written as modern scholars claim (as opposed to the Church's tradition), one would expect otherwise -- especially since St. Ignatius was heir to the Petrine see of Antioch.

As a final side-note, there are actually some fairly interesting theories that Gnosticism did have some subtle after-the-fact influences on the text of the New Testament in its Alexandrian text-type. The Alexandrian text-type whose handful of manuscripts primarily underlie the modern critical texts on which all modern translations are based has readings that can, according to some, be read in a Gnostic way -- whereas the Byzantine text-type of those same readings are not at all Gnostic-friendly. None of this is provable, but it certainly adds additional reasons to be cautious regarding the Alexandrian text-type. The links between residual Gnosticism and the later Monophysitism that came to capture Egypt seem, to me, to be fairly clear, which I also find interesting in this regard.

I can certainly understand a measure of zeal in attempting to convince our Protestant brothers of the self-evident fact that the Church and its oral tradition predated the writing down of the New Testament Scriptures, and that thus the understanding of what those Scriptures meant and didn't mean was shaped from the beginning by this Apostolic tradition.

But to swallow the idea that our New Testament Scriptures were written only to react to Gnostic writings seems to me to be "a bridge too far." Likewise, assigning dates of composition to these Gospels beyond the 1st century is not at all in line with our Church's tradition. Dating them much beyond the early 2nd century doesn't even jibe with most scholarly opinions.


5,319 posted on 04/30/2006 5:40:56 PM PDT by Agrarian
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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus; annalex; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; blue-duncan; Agrarian
God already gives us His interpretation in other scripture. Some rely on that, and some rely on men

And you know that He gave it to you? I am sure you have convinced yourself of that.

Kosta: Everything in the Church can be traced to the word of God and corroborated in the Bible

FK: You mean things like papal authority, and the filioque? Please show me the corroboration

The filioque has to do with Trinitarian theology, which is scriptural. The Catholics are not wrong in asserting filioque; just incomplete. The Petrine office is evidenced in the giving of the keys. His pastoral primacy and his juridical authority, which developed later, are not one and the same. The Orthodox Church recongizes the former, but not the latter.

So it was the Church that decided to create the New Testament, and it was because of the Gnostics?

Not at all! I am apalled that you would take it that way. I will give a more elaborate answer to Agrarian's comment on this.

5,320 posted on 04/30/2006 6:41:22 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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