Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will

Protestant Reformed Theological Journal ^ | April 1999 | Garrett J. Eriks

[HarleyD]

If you had the puppet-master type of God, then Jonah wouldn't even be in a position to disagree, God would have moulded his mind and made Jonah DO it without even being in a position to choose.

Who was right; Jonah or God? If you disagreed with God who do you think would be right?

Assuming you agree that in a disagreement between you and God that God is ALWAYS right, wouldn't you want God to do whatever He needed to do to change your heart to conform to doing what is right? Everything comes from God. Even our repentance is from God.

Jonah thought hard and long in that fish but he came around. I'll tell you quite frankly it would have only taken me about 5 minutes before I'd be praying to get out of there. Not three days.

Do you honestly think that is being a "puppet" to God. Don't you want God to lead you on the right path or do you feel confident enough that you can make that decision?

Yes, there are several places in scripture that states that God "changed" His mind or repented. Any reliable commentator worth His salt (and I would suspect a great many Catholic theologians as well) will tell you these verses are more properly translates as God was "sorry" that this had to happen or that it is given for man's edification.

I know of no church father or reliable commentator who would agree with your ascertain that God didn't know what was going to take place and changed the course of the universe. After all isn't everyone's name written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Surely He could have peeked to see if the people of Nineveh were in it.

[HarleyD]

I believe it is clear I'm talking about those who walk by faith are decendents of Abraham. This is consistent with Paul in Galatians 3:7, "Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham."

[Cronos]

I'll tell you quite frankly it would have only taken me about 5 minutes before I'd be praying to get out of there. Not three days.
Yes, demonstrating your capacity of free will

[Cronos]

Do you honestly think that is being a "puppet" to God.

Nope, that's free will. What you claim as pre-destination means complete mental control.

[Cronos]

will tell you these verses are more properly translates as God was "sorry" that this had to happen or that it is given for man's edification.

Really? First He wanted to destroy Nineveh, then He changed His mind -- was He sorry he didn't destroy it?

[Cronos]

I know of no church father or reliable commentator who would agree with your ascertain that God didn't know what was going to take place and changed the course of the universe.

Nope, that's not my point -- I say God KNEW completely what was going to take place, only He wasn't (and isn't) slave to some plan.

[HarleyD]

Protestantism does tend to have the fault of taking away the need for man to emulate God -- it's already decided, so sit back and do nothing.

Ooooo...the old argument that Paul (and Augustine) got. Here's your answer:

Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

[Gamecock]

Really? First He wanted to destroy Nineveh, then He changed His mind -- was He sorry he didn't destroy it?

Was he suprised that they repented and then changed his mind?

[HarleyD]

Jonah had one of two choices 1) stay in the digestive tract of the fish to be slowly desolved; or 2) be obedient to God's calling and be rescued. If you want to say that Jonah looked at his options and "freely" chose his course that he deemed the most appropriate please feel "free" to do so.

Quite frankly and no offense but it's a bit idiotic. Given a survey of 100 objective and rational observers placed into a similar situation I'm confident I could perdict the survey results. Why, heck, I'm even confident I know what you would do if you were placed inside a big fish.

[HarleyD]

I say God KNEW completely what was going to take place, only He wasn't (and isn't) slave to some plan.

Really??? God has a plan for everyone of our lifes. This plan was written before the foundations of the world when all the names were recorded in the Book of Life, including Jonah, the people of Nineveh, yours, mine, and Joe down the street.

Jer 29:11 'For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope.

As Proverbs states man's steps are ordained by the Lord.

[Cronos]

really? A pre-destination clause means that everything has already been thought through, planned and decided by a higher power -- you have no control over whether you sin or not, you can sit back and do nothing with your life as you could vainly believe that you are part of the "elect" and do not need to help your fellow man or spread the Word of God or be an instrument through which God can act.

[Cronos]

It's kinnda hard not to repent and do what God want's when you are in the belly of a fish for three days. I would say Jonah's will was violated.

Hmmm... so Jonah DID have a will, correct? And he did choose to disobey God and then obey him ,correct? Did God take over his brain, or Moses' brain or Jeremiah's? That would be what pre-destination is about, right? But that didn't happen, God, for whatever reason, enjoys it for us to have freedom, freedom of will, freedom to FREELY choose God or not. It pleases Him when we choose Him. Else, He just has some chimpanzee robots that follow a program -- like creating a VB program that only keeps repeating "Gamecock is great, Gamecock is great." --> God doesn't want that

[Cronos]

It's kinnda hard not to repent and do what God want's when you are in the belly of a fish for three days. I would say Jonah's will was violated.

Hmmm... so Jonah DID have a will, correct? And he did choose to disobey God and then obey him ,correct? Did God take over his brain, or Moses' brain or Jeremiah's? That would be what pre-destination is about, right? But that didn't happen, God, for whatever reason, enjoys it for us to have freedom, freedom of will, freedom to FREELY choose God or not. It pleases Him when we choose Him. Else, He just has some chimpanzee robots that follow a program -- like creating a VB program that only keeps repeating "Gamecock is great, Gamecock is great."

[Cronos]

Sure. Augustine speaks of man's neutrality. No doubt about it. I just happen to think that Augustine didn't take his predestination premise far enough. He was on the correct track but didn't further the logical conclusion and implication that man's steps are ordained by the Lord.

Ok, first you quote Augustine completely and say he's completely correct and you follow everything this man said. Then, when told that Augustine actually didn't agree with the robot-maker idea, you state that Augustine didn't go far enough.

WHO went far enough, in your opinion? Rasputin? Anton Szandor LaVey?

[Cronos]

Jonah repented. Cain didn't. Was Cain's steps directed by God?

Neither's steps were "directed" by God. Both were free to choose or not choose God, demonstrating free will.

[Cronos]

Luther was not a rabid scholar. He was highly esteemed by the Catholic Church so long as he agreed with the Church's position.

Where did you get that?

It's only after he broke with the Church that he lost all sense of reasoning.

Now, YOU are saying that Luther went non compos mentis?

 

[Cronos]

gotcha -- that makes sense.

[Cronos]

Protestantism does tend to have the fault of taking away the need for man to emulate God -- it's already decided, so sit back and do nothing.

Ooooo...the old argument that Paul (and Augustine) got. Here's your answer:

Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Thanks for that --> I'm glad to hear that you don't believe in the idea of sinning so that grace may increase.  However, the pre-destination dogma does lead to this.

[HarleyD]

Neither's steps were "directed" by God.

All men's steps are ordained by God. Please see tagline below. Less you wonder what "ordained" means the definition is "to order by virtue of superior authority; decree or enact, to prearrange unalterably; predestine"

What amazes me is how people deny a clear piece of scripture and insist that it is wrong either directly or indirectly simply to satisfy misguided theology.

[Cronos]

Cronos: I say God KNEW completely what was going to take place, only He wasn't (and isn't) slave to some plan.

HD: Really???

Ok, then, you say that God is a slave to *drum roll* THE PLAN?

So, God's plan to destroy Nineveh was a lie -- are you saying God lied?