Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
I do not agree.
I want free will so that I can play on the freeway - it is so exhilarating to dodge cars.
Eternity in hell does not sound all that bad anyhow incase my free will gets it wrong.
I do not want to be a robot either; well maybe R2D2 would be OK.
Thank you Triune-God that all I have said above is not true. Thank you for including me in the church, the body of Christ, from before the foundation of the world.
I understand your point and agree with it, but my usage is acceptable. For example, in Luke 1:16 we read that St. John the Baptist "shall convert many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God". In Acts 3:26 the Jews are descibed converting themselves. But the best scriptural example of conversion not by Bible-quoting but by prayer is found at the end of the Epistle of James:
16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much. 17 Elias was a man passible like unto us: and with prayer he prayed that it might not rain upon the earth, and it rained not for three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again: and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. 19 My brethren, if any of you err from the truth, and one convert him: 20 He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.Speaking of Christian mysticism, St. Francis suggested that the Gospel should be preached to animals. The saints are known to have control over the fiercest of them. Do you suppose one gives them quotes?
On another instance St. Francis invited his friend to go and preach in town. Together, they crossed the town in silence and came back to where they started. -- I thought we were going to preach, -- said the friend. -- We just did, -- said St. Francis. Imagine a barefooted bedraggled monk followed by every street dog, with birds resting on his outstretched arms, and tell me if Billy Graham could outpreach that.
Christian mysticism is just as dangerous as Christian Bible reading. In either case presumption dooms the enterprise, and in each case spiritual direction and prayerful attitude are necessary ingredients.
Bishop Minatios, whose work we ended up discussing so much noticed that Isaac really attempted to sell his blessing, so it wouldn't have been valid if given. Jacob parlayed the blessing into the nation of Israel, which he founded. Could Esau have done as well?
This is ultra-determinism that has no support in the Book of Genesis as written. Esau is shown wanting the soup, hesitating, weighing the benefits of it against the primogeniture, and deciding for the soup. Rebecca is shown building up a complex intrigue in order to co-opt Jacob and fool Isaac. Isaac nearly succeeds in discovering the truth. If the inspired author wanted to convey automatic preordainment, he failed utterly in this literary task; but if he wanted to depict a conflict of independent wills striving to their respective goals and priorities, he succeeded brilliantly.
God doesn't speak in riddles.
There was no intrigue or conspiracy on the part of Rebecca and Jacob. Jacob bought the birthright in a fair bargain. Every one got just they wanted based on their experience and educated decisions. When Jacob bought the birthright he was entitled to the blessing. He in effect, became the "eldest". If anything it was Esau and Isaac who were trying to cheat Jacob out of his blessing and God provided a way for Rececca to overhear the conspiracy and thwart it. It saved Isaac from disobeying God's plan for Israel. All of these events were orchestrated by God.
The case for Jacob as one deciding his own destiny is made even stronger as he wrestles another blessing from the angel.
Which reminds me of my old limerick. Maybe Murphy can put it to music.
Jacob had an additional soul
Which from Archangel Michael he stole
This remarkable feat
Left Gentiles incomplete
Till the Pentecost rendered them whole
I would say that 'yes', the focus is on the sinner's prayer. And, as I have learned on this thread, perseverance is also required and will happen through God's power. We would say that the elect will not become "unhealed" because God keeps His own and will not forsake us.
And finally, when Catholics say "we are saved", they are normally referring to that moment when we "stand" before the Throne of God and are judged based on how we responded to God's grace, much like Matthew 25:31-45.
I was wondering about the actual moment, thanks for clarifying.
At any rate, there are other verses that discuss how we can lose "salvation", such as:
"For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries" (Heb 10:26-27)
I would counter by saying that anyone who so defiantly sins against God was never saved in the first place. God would not let His elect fall into that level of sin after salvation.
Perhaps part of the misunderstanding comes from our different definitions of what it means to be saved. Has God's grace become effective on the person who has faith to move mountains but has not love? Paul says that faith is worthless (1 Cor 13:2). Is worthless faith going to achieve eternal heaven for us? Would you say that God expects that His gifts are used by our display of love for our neighbor? James is not impressed with such "faith", either, nor is John. And Jesus, well, Matthew 7:21 tells us we must DO the will of the Father. Our faith should lead us to do good, otherwise, it is worthless faith. If it doesn't, then what?
No, worthless faith will not achieve eternal heaven for us. (I know, you're shocked :) I think that the love you speak of is an included component of God's true grace and faith. I WOULD say that God expects that His gifts are to be used by our display of love for our neighbor. It's included. Our true faith will lead us to do good. I see Paul's opening statements in 1 Cor. 13 as meaning that talk is cheap. God covers His elect by granting the ability to truly love, and it will be exercised by the elect.
This is where I am lost by the "once saved - always saved" doctrine.
I now admit that this doctrine suffers greatly under scriptural scrutiny. That's why I have adopted "Perseverance of the Saints", which holds that perseverance is necessary and that man could fail. However, that won't happen for the elect because God will not allow it. God keeps His own, and the love we have been discussing will be evident in the believer's life because of the nature of the gift and God's plan.
Me: I agree that the battle is not over once, in my view, salvation is achieved.
Ah. What battle is left to fight then? NOTHING can separate us from the love of God, correct? ... But if we continue to fight a battle and cannot fail, what is the battle's purpose?
Even after salvation we will still battle against remnants or memories of the old sin nature, even though it has been replaced with a new nature. Satan will continue to attack us in spiritual warfare. Even if I know I'm going to win at the end, I still don't want to get stabbed 50 times. :) So, we battle, and through this battle we are sanctified and become stronger for Christ on this earth. We are happier as strong Christians rather than weak ones. There is purpose.
The very basic message is not difficult to understand, but the Scriptures themselves require some understanding of past interpretations.
That's all I was referring to. I just meant that the gospel of salvation is simple enough that a child could understand it and be saved.
Being humble requires that we also take into account the Church's interpretation on Scripture.
I don't mind taking it into account, the problem is my lack of recognition of authority. The only authority for me is God.
Thus, if our prayers lead us to interpret something that is out of line with what the Spirit has taught the Church throughout history, are we being humble?
Well, if your prayers lead you, then what does that say? Jesus was all humility and yet He frequently disagreed with the teachings of the day.
Your statements are all over the map. It is not possible to twist them more than you twist them. You make a statement, we call you on it and you deny that you meant what you said. Over and over again and again.
It's been going in circles for over 1000 posts. Why don't you guys go pow wow on the Catholic threads until you can get your stories straight?
The only fit response to your continual changing of the parameters is silence. You have no logic, you do not know how to read, you do not know how to conduct an argument, you do not know how even to repeat accurately the argument you claim to disagree with.
You have a lot of gall. You have yet to respond coherently to me. You have never engaged my arguments but merely made lateral moves.
Don't give me any of this "your silence is deafening" business.
When you respond to my original point coherently I'll respond to your last piece of incoherence.
Do you advocate this approach?
Christian mysticism is just as dangerous as Christian Bible reading.
I find it indescribably sad that you believe this.
On another instance St. Francis invited his friend to go and preach in town. Together, they crossed the town in silence and came back to where they started. -- I thought we were going to preach, -- said the friend. -- We just did, -- said St. Francis.
No, Frank and his pal did not preach.
Although perhaps that is to our benefit.
This thread just keeps getting weirder and weirder. I thought I'd seen it all. Then this. Then Saints preaching to animals and preaching through silence.
Too weird.
Although perhaps that is to our benefit.
Considering some of the stuff I've read on this thread, I'd have to agree.
Good Night.
If you have the ability to accept or reject God's grace, then you are the ultimate arbiter of your salvation because you have the final yea or nay.
God offers, but man determines.
That's not what Scripture says. Read it again.
Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." -- Eph. 2:8-10"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Good night, Marlowe. (That was from my schnauzer.)
Amen, Forest Keeper.
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." -- John 6:37-40"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
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