I would say that 'yes', the focus is on the sinner's prayer. And, as I have learned on this thread, perseverance is also required and will happen through God's power. We would say that the elect will not become "unhealed" because God keeps His own and will not forsake us.
And finally, when Catholics say "we are saved", they are normally referring to that moment when we "stand" before the Throne of God and are judged based on how we responded to God's grace, much like Matthew 25:31-45.
I was wondering about the actual moment, thanks for clarifying.
At any rate, there are other verses that discuss how we can lose "salvation", such as:
"For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries" (Heb 10:26-27)
I would counter by saying that anyone who so defiantly sins against God was never saved in the first place. God would not let His elect fall into that level of sin after salvation.
Perhaps part of the misunderstanding comes from our different definitions of what it means to be saved. Has God's grace become effective on the person who has faith to move mountains but has not love? Paul says that faith is worthless (1 Cor 13:2). Is worthless faith going to achieve eternal heaven for us? Would you say that God expects that His gifts are used by our display of love for our neighbor? James is not impressed with such "faith", either, nor is John. And Jesus, well, Matthew 7:21 tells us we must DO the will of the Father. Our faith should lead us to do good, otherwise, it is worthless faith. If it doesn't, then what?
No, worthless faith will not achieve eternal heaven for us. (I know, you're shocked :) I think that the love you speak of is an included component of God's true grace and faith. I WOULD say that God expects that His gifts are to be used by our display of love for our neighbor. It's included. Our true faith will lead us to do good. I see Paul's opening statements in 1 Cor. 13 as meaning that talk is cheap. God covers His elect by granting the ability to truly love, and it will be exercised by the elect.
This is where I am lost by the "once saved - always saved" doctrine.
I now admit that this doctrine suffers greatly under scriptural scrutiny. That's why I have adopted "Perseverance of the Saints", which holds that perseverance is necessary and that man could fail. However, that won't happen for the elect because God will not allow it. God keeps His own, and the love we have been discussing will be evident in the believer's life because of the nature of the gift and God's plan.
Me: I agree that the battle is not over once, in my view, salvation is achieved.
Ah. What battle is left to fight then? NOTHING can separate us from the love of God, correct? ... But if we continue to fight a battle and cannot fail, what is the battle's purpose?
Even after salvation we will still battle against remnants or memories of the old sin nature, even though it has been replaced with a new nature. Satan will continue to attack us in spiritual warfare. Even if I know I'm going to win at the end, I still don't want to get stabbed 50 times. :) So, we battle, and through this battle we are sanctified and become stronger for Christ on this earth. We are happier as strong Christians rather than weak ones. There is purpose.
The very basic message is not difficult to understand, but the Scriptures themselves require some understanding of past interpretations.
That's all I was referring to. I just meant that the gospel of salvation is simple enough that a child could understand it and be saved.
Being humble requires that we also take into account the Church's interpretation on Scripture.
I don't mind taking it into account, the problem is my lack of recognition of authority. The only authority for me is God.
Thus, if our prayers lead us to interpret something that is out of line with what the Spirit has taught the Church throughout history, are we being humble?
Well, if your prayers lead you, then what does that say? Jesus was all humility and yet He frequently disagreed with the teachings of the day.
Amen, Forest Keeper.
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." -- John 6:37-40"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Unfortunately, we don't know if WE are the elect, only God knows that. By our practical experience, we know of people who had thought they were saved for eternal life, but then fell away. Paul says, "Wherefore he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall" (1 Cor 10:12). We shouldn't be overconfident, like the Jews of 1 Cor 10:1-11, who DID die. Even Paul says he continues to run the race, lest he should be DISQUALIFIED. That doesn't mean "second place" or "consolation prize", but cast out of the company of those who persevered. We, too, must continue to run the race throughout our lives. That is what perseverence means. And since we do not know if God has already considered us one of the elect, we cannot become overconfident.
I would counter by saying that anyone who so defiantly sins against God was never saved in the first place. God would not let His elect fall into that level of sin after salvation.
I doubt that a "saved" person moves to that point immediately in their walk. From my experience, people will drift away, committing voluntary smaller sins, which eventually lead to committing more serious sins. It happens. AND, if a person "was not saved in the first place", then how can you say you or anyone is "once saved/always saved"? How do you know that you have "x" amount of faith at that initial sinner's prayer moment?
I WOULD say that God expects that His gifts are to be used by our display of love for our neighbor.
Most certainly. God doesn't give gifts to be rejected or not used. Consider the parable of the Talents. Not a word is spoken about faith. The Kingdom of heaven, in this parable, is dependent upon how we use the gifts that God has loaned us. The last man did no evil. He didn't use the gift given. And thus, he had no love. He was condemned.
However, that won't happen for the elect because God will not allow it. God keeps His own, and the love we have been discussing will be evident in the believer's life because of the nature of the gift and God's plan.
You are presuming that you WILL be one of the elect and that God will protect you infallibly from yourself. I am more of the thought that God gives us the necessary gifts to follow Him, but depends on us to make the correct choices. The Scripture speaks of a reward in heaven. Rewards imply that we did something of merit or value. Thus, God rewards those who use their gifts of faith and love to do His will here on earth. Of course, we don't do this alone. But God's grace do not overpower our own free will. They act together.
I now admit that this doctrine suffers greatly under scriptural scrutiny. That's why I have adopted "Perseverance of the Saints", which holds that perseverance is necessary and that man could fail. However, that won't happen for the elect because God will not allow it. God keeps His own, and the love we have been discussing will be evident in the believer's life because of the nature of the gift and God's plan.
I admit I am impressed by your candor. I don't hear it too often here. I agree that God will grant the grace of final perseverance to those whom He will. But there is no way to merit that grace, nor is there a way that we can know we will receive it. Thus, we humbly approach the Father, pleading for His final mercy. There is no overconfidence in this approach - it is one of humble submission to the Father, asking His mercy and looking upon us as nothing who needs His good graces to come to Him. The idea of "perseverance of the saints", as per Calvin, presumes that each Calvinist is one of the saints. It is man who has determined who is saved, not God. One PRESUMES that he is saved for eternal life and that God will infallibly protect him. Again, Paul speaks against such thoughts in 1 Cor 10. Jesus speaks over and over about persevering TO THE END. I see a difference in the two points of view - one of presumption, one of humble approachment to God.
Even after salvation we will still battle against remnants or memories of the old sin nature, even though it has been replaced with a new nature. Satan will continue to attack us in spiritual warfare. Even if I know I'm going to win at the end, I still don't want to get stabbed 50 times. :) So, we battle, and through this battle we are sanctified and become stronger for Christ on this earth. We are happier as strong Christians rather than weak ones. There is purpose.
Of course. We continue to fight to become more holy - for without becoming holy, we shall not see God. Thus, we are forged in the fire of temptation and suffering. REAL knowledge of the spiritual only is acquired through suffering and action. Self-gratification is inimical to true knowledge in God. Naturally, some will not pass the testing and will fall away.
I don't mind taking it into account, the problem is my lack of recognition of authority. The only authority for me is God.
In the end, you are correct, but God delegates His authority to others. That is the way Scriptures have talked about such things from the beginning. Moses, for example. Consider reading Numbers 16. God speaks through other men, delegating to them His authority to speak for Him. Likewise for the Apostles "he who hears you hears Me, and he who rejects you rejects Me and My Father who sent Me", said Jesus. God speaks through the Church, not to us individually (on doctrinal matters). Otherwise, we'd have no idea which was correct belief - How do I, as a Christian, know WHO is preaching correctly, IF God didn't leave a center of authority on earth?
Brother in Christ