Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
Now you are asking good questions. My simple synopsis is that unless you can find love and mercy, you are not on target. Jesus redefines OT verses (Mat 5:38-39). Why? Because the Jews, the people to whom God has revealed Himself, have not interpreted His covenant correctly (Heb 8:7). One does not defeat evil with evil. Instead, He teaches that which goes against our fabric of justice and guts -- to pray for our enemies, for God has inscribed the knowledge of Himself in their hearts as well -- so that they may see the light of God and be saved.
God's love is the same, but those who hate God experience it as wrath. Those who love God experience His love as soothing and lfe-giving; those who hate Him as fires and torture. God is Life, for we exist only because of Him, but those who reject Him surely die. God gives us blessings and opportunities to become Christ-like but if we refuse, which we are free to do, we shall condemn ourselves. Love does not impose itself. God will not "force" us to love Him. God is not the boogie man who wants to tear us to pieces, but a Loving Father Who wants to save us all.
More importantly, the only way we can come to God is through love. The greater our love for God and for humanity, the more Christ-like we become! But very few really love God. Many more fear Him because they know that we are ungrateful to Him all the time. They believe because they figure if they can't beat Him they better join him!Fear is not love. Only those who don't love God (even if they claim they do) fear God. Those who love Him have no fear -- they simply submit to "Thy will be done" knowing that whatever happens will be merciful and just.
God is your friend and Christ taught us that we need to love God with all our hearts and minds and soul, and our neighbors as ourselves (Mat 22:37). Those are his commandments and that is all you need to live by.
That really hit home. The professionals engender a tyranny of false compunction that can paralyze.
When light finally breaks and people can understand for themselves their inheritance, surely there will be excesses, but there will also be be truth that saves and empowers them to be the stewards of the promises given to them and to those they are responsible for. The church was never meant for the professionals. It was meant for the people to personally know their God and in knowing to do great deeds.
That also hit home. Beautifully put.
Is this different from sin? I always thought that the Father sent the Son because He cared enough about something to make the effort. But, you said that God was indifferent to sin.
"God became man so that men might become gods", in other words, so that we might attain theosis which is our created purpose.
I must admit that I am completely unfamiliar with this idea. We are to become gods? Is there any Biblical support for us becoming gods?
Oh, I fully agree...the dropping of a computer analogy is perfect. That's why I "lump" Christians into two groups -- the Apostolic community and the other. Anything outside the Apostolic Churches pretty much satisfies "a quandary for the curious mind, but that knowledge is not going to fix" anything.
Our Churches have a providential chance of reuniting one day, but others, well that may require a miracle! :-)
Your quote from 2 Peter is the crucial element of truth about Bible-only based so-called churches. The Bible was not readily available for almost 2,000 years and the majority of the population could not read way into the 20th century, let alone understand the Bible in context in which it was written. Clearly, God'splan was was not every-man-is-his-own-pope idea and a proliferation of private interpretations.
The Fathers kept accurate records which show us how the Church phronema worked in context of the times when the Apostles still walked the earth. As Kolokotronis observed: chances are that they knew better than some Germans 1,500 years later.
God is simply helping us become restored to our original state, the way we were created. Those who turn to God stand a chance. Those who don't -- well, they will never be restored. He is doing that not because He needs us, or because he is "lonely" (God is one but He is not alone), or because we "earned it," but simply because He loves us. Sin does not affect Him, you can be sure of that.
I see fear very differently. John the Baptist preached it. To me, fear of the Lord is an appreciation of the greatness of the power of God. Therefore, to understand God better is to fear him more. Next to Him, we are bugs, beloved bugs, but bugs. I see the Biblical use of the concept as a good thing and not inconsistent with love at all.
"From the power of death over us.
Is this different from sin? I always thought that the Father sent the Son because He cared enough about something to make the effort. But, you said that God was indifferent to sin."
Quite different. Death, both physical and spiritual, entered the world along with the sin of Adam because on account of that sin, we were, until the Incarnation, utterly incapable of fulfilling our created purpose. Death had dominion over us. We could not become "like gods", attain theosis, and after physical death were separated from God and remained in the place of the dead. My tag line says it all. Its from the Pascal Sermon of +John Chrysostom. And of course God cared enough about His creation to make the effort. God loves us.
"I must admit that I am completely unfamiliar with this idea. We are to become gods? Is there any Biblical support for us becoming gods?"
Absolutely! Read "On the Incarnation" by +Athanasius the Great. The link is below and the work is replete with scripture. He wrote it about 318, before even the 1st Ecumenical Council.
"http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-04/Npnf2-04-16.htm"
"I say that those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love. It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God's love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love's power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it." +Isaac the Syrian, Homily 84
"Next to Him, we are bugs, beloved bugs, but bugs."
No we're not. We are, as the Fathers say, a marvel of the angels. But there is no comparison between us as finite created beings and our ineffable and transcendant Triune God. This is no denial of the fact that Adam and Eve were created in the image and likeness of God. Even after the Fall, they retained the image of God, but lost His "likeness". Through the Incarnation we are again able to attain theosis, which is the fullness of the "likeness" of God wherein we share in God's uncreated energies, though not, of course in His essence.
Here is what the Lord said to Peter when he was caught fishing rather than being about his Father's business:
Jhn 21:21 "Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what [shall] this man [do]? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me."
He told Peter that it was none of his business what the Lord had in store for John. His business was to follow Christ. After his hypocrisy in Galatia and his brief statement at the Jerusalem Council we don't hear anything about Peter except as an illustration in the first letter to Corinth and his two letters.
Prophecy is not of private interpretation, that is why the Holy Spirit came and leads each believer into all truth. It's not what I think but what the scripture says. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved."
Just got back from Christmas, so I am a bit late in this thread. Seems interesting.
Kolo-"Easy, Orthodoxy hasn't changed its doctrine and dogmas since the 7th Ecumenical Council."
The 7th Ecumenical Council met to refute iconoclasm (veneration of idols). Are you saying this was a change in Church doctrine?
The Fathers constantly referred to each others writings, Harley.
Yes the fathers referred to each others writings-sometimes pleasant, sometimes not so. They didn't referred to them as inspired. John Cassian who the Eastern Orthodox revere was looked upon as a heretic in the west. I doubt if you'll find many of the early western church fathers referring to his writings.
Tsk, tsk Kolo to make such a statement. If this was so there was no reason for the death of His Son, no need for the fire and brimstone of Sodom, and certainly no need for flooding the earth. This is not the God of scripture.
Of course, owe and reverence, but the west also sees a vengful and angry God. That is most unfortunate.
Historically most of those in the Church were Renaissance rationalists. I believe the author is correct in his assertion and this is even verified by the Catholic website newadvent.com. Below is a very small excerpt about the life of Erasmus.
" The 7th Ecumenical Council met to refute iconoclasm (veneration of idols). Are you saying this was a change in Church doctrine?"
No, not at all. The Councils defined dogma which had a tendency to "change" erroneus beliefs.
"Yes the fathers referred to each others writings-sometimes pleasant, sometimes not so. They didn't referred to them as inspired."
I know some Latin Church authors have said this sort of thing. I disgree but then again it may be that the word "inspired" is being limited to scripture and in that usage I agree with what you have written. The Fathers didn't write scripture.
"John Cassian who the Eastern Orthodox revere was looked upon as a heretic in the west. I doubt if you'll find many of the early western church fathers referring to his writings."
Actually he was revered in the West by many, including at least three popes and is quoted by a number of Western Fathers concerning his thoughts on iconoclasm. He was never formally canonized a saint by the Western Church but his feast day is celebrated around Marseilles to this day. What we was accused of was Semipelagianism, that boogeyman of the West. He was a disciple of +John Chrysostomos.
What is interesting is the "Protestants" who are missing. A careful reading of this article illustrate how much Protestants today embrace Roman doctrine.
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