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Drawing the Line for Mormons: A Closer Look at the LDS Church
Catholic Exchange ^
| October 17, 2005
| Mary Kochan
Posted on 10/17/2005 6:28:59 AM PDT by NYer
Mormons want you to believe that they are "Christians" and that their church, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints," is just another Christian denomination. Mormons themselves believe that they are Christians and that their church is the only true church. There is even a move among Mormons to shorten the name of their church to simply "The Church of Jesus Christ."
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In This Article... America's Lost Tribe
Jesus: Brother of Lucifer?
When Talking to a Mormon
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America's Lost Tribe
Their founder, Joseph Smith, claimed to have been told in a vision regarding the Christian churches that God "forbade me to join with any of them" and "all their creeds were an abomination in his sight." It is hence Mormons (not Christians) who established, from the beginning of their group, an antagonistic relationship with those Christian groups already in existence. In recent years Mormons have sought to downplay this antagonism, and that testimony of Joseph Smith has received a new whitewashing in the current Newsweek cover story "The Mormon Odyssey" which relates the story like this: "God and Jesus appeared and delivered a startling message: he shouldn't join any of the churches of the world, for they had long ago fallen away from Christ's true Gospel."
In one sense clearly, Mormons are Christian. If you were going to categorize Mormons according to world-religion criteria, you would have to say they are Christians. World religions are the major belief systems found around the world that frame a tradition of enough cultural richness to support a civilization. The major world religions are Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Confucianism and Islam. Clearly Mormonism fits into the broad "Christian" category. And so would many other groups whose relationship with the wider Christian world is antagonistic: Jehovah's Witnesses, Branch Davidians, Oneness Pentecostals, etc.
It may be that in the not-too-distant future, we will have to categorize Mormonism as a separate world religion. It is the fifth-largest religious group now in the US, having just passed the Lutherans, and the LDS are experiencing rapid expansion in other countries. In many ways its development parallels that of Islam. Both religions were founded by prophets who claimed to have been visited by an angel. They borrow heavily from Judaism and Christianity, yet reject their central tenets. Both rely upon strange revisions of history. The Koran identifies Mary, the mother of Jesus, with Miriam the sister of Moses, who lived over fourteen centuries earlier. The Book of Mormon makes numerous claims regarding the peoples of the Americas (including the idea that the American Indians descended from a lost tribe of ancient Israelites) that have been refuted by history, archeology and anthropology. Both Islam and Mormonism claim that where their sacred writings contradict the Bible, the Christian and Jewish scriptures have been corrupted.
It might be argued that Mormons have the right to say that they are "Christians" and no one should deny what they say about themselves. It is possible, however, for us to respect their right to call themselves whatever they wish without feeling compelled to validate that claim ourselves. This is complicated by the fact that to many Catholics, Mormonism seems no more strange than the Baptist faith, or that of any other Protestant denomination. In part this is because Mormons themselves generally use the language and terminology common to (especially Protestant) Christians. In their initial approach to you, they will do all they can to hide or gloss over the distinctive beliefs of their church. Statements of Mormon belief sound so much like statements of the Christian faith that many Catholics and Protestants are quite willing to recognize Mormons as "Christians," not merely in the world-religion sense, but in the sense in which we Catholics recognize Protestant Christians as our "separated brethren." This is a serious error with two major consequences.
First, Christians (including Catholics) are misled into the Mormon church where they are indoctrinated in a religion which rejects the central doctrines of the Christian faith, resulting in them bringing their children up as non-Christians. Second, Christians embrace Mormons as fellow Christians instead of evangelizing them.
In order to protect Christians from this deception and to help Mormons learn the truth, we must understand how Mormon doctrine differs from the historic Christian faith that we share with Protestants. To do this, we will examine first what Mormons say, then how they define the terms they are using and how that differs from the Christian faith. Finally we provide a biblical, Christian response and suggestions for how to discuss these things with a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The Central Question: Who is God?
What Mormons will say they believe about God:
- We believe in God the Father who is the Father of Jesus Christ.
- We worship God the Father and pray to him in Jesus's name.
- Jesus is our Savior.
Why the Mormon God the Father is not the Christian God the Father:
- "God the Father" to a Mormon is not God the Father, first Person of the Holy Trinity, Whom Christians confess. He is one of many gods.
- The Mormon worships God the Father because He is the god of this planet, but other planets have other gods equal to or even greater than God the Father.
- The Mormon "God the Father" had a father and was once a man on a planet who worshipped his own Father God. He was subsequently exalted to godhood. He has a physical, human body.
- It is the hope of the male Mormon to progress to the point where he too will be a god like God the Father and be ruling over his own planet.
- The Mormons have a saying: "What man is, God once was; what God is, man will become." This is polytheism.
Christian answer:
- The God of the Bible is the Creator and God of all the universe, of all worlds, not just our planet. He made the heavens and the earth; there is no other God; there never has been any other God, nor will there ever be another. (Gn 1:1; Is 43;10; 44:6, 8, 24)
- God the Father was never a man.
- You will never be God.
- True Christianity, like Judaism, is monotheistic. As our creed states "We believe in one God."
Jesus: Brother of Lucifer?
Why the Mormon Jesus is not the Christian Jesus:
- The Mormon Jesus is the spirit-brother of Lucifer (Satan). They were both born in heaven by God the Father's union with one of his many spirit wives.
- According to Mormon teaching, when it was time for Jesus to come down to earth, God the Father sent down one of his spirit wives from heaven to be born as a woman, Mary. Then he came down and had physical, marital relations with her in order for her to give birth to a human body inhabited by Jesus coming from heaven. This is a denial of the Virgin Birth.
Christian answer:
- Since God the Father does not have a physical human body, He did not impregnate Mary by a physical union (2 Chr 6:18; Jn 4:24).
- Jesus became incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit and was born of the Virgin Mary (Mt 1:23; Lk 2:30-35).
- God the Father does not have a wife or wives in heaven.
- Jesus is the eternally-begotten Son of God, one in being with the Father (Jn 1:1-18).
- He is not the older brother of Lucifer.
- He is the older brother, as well as Lord and God, of those born again by water and Spirit, God's adopted children (Jn 3:3-17; Rom 8:14-17, 29).
Why the Mormon doctrine of man is not the Christian doctrine of man:
- According to Mormonism, all human beings existed as spirit children of God and his wife in heaven before coming to earth.
- They grow to spirit "adulthood" serving God (even fighting in heavenly battles), and are then sent to earth to be babies of human parents.
- The earthly life is their opportunity to become gods themselves, like their heavenly Father, by "obeying the laws of the Gospel" just as the god of this planet once did.
Christian answer:
- There is no biblical support for the idea that human beings were spirit children of God in heaven before coming to earth.
- Jesus was unique in being a human being with a pre-human existence (Jn 1:18; 3:13, 31; 8:23, 58).
- Jesus took on human nature at the Incarnation. God became man not the other way around. His human nature was glorified at His Resurrection.
- We will be like God in that we will have the same kind of glorified human nature which Jesus possesses, not in becoming gods and ruling planets ourselves (1 Jn 3:3; Rom 8:22, Phil 3:20-21).
- While heaven is the presence of God with unfettered communion, the distinction between God and creatures remains (Rv 5:13, 14).
What is Salvation?
What Mormons will say they believe about salvation:
- All are redeemed by the Savior's self-sacrifice, from the consequences of the fall.
- Immortality comes as a free gift, by the grace of God alone, without works.
- Jesus is our Savior.
Why Mormon salvation is not Christian salvation:
- According to Mormonism, everyone and everything all of creation has been redeemed and therefore "saved."
- This salvation gains, for all human beings, a physical resurrection only not eternal life. Eternal life is not "salvation"; it is "exaltation."
- If you ask a Mormon if he is saved (per Evangelical parlance), he will answer yes.
- If you ask him if he believes you are saved, he will answer yes. This confuses Christians who do not understand that being "saved" and gaining "eternal life" are not the same thing in Mormon thinking.
- It is further confused by the Mormon distinction between "immortality" (salvation to physical resurrection) and "eternal life" (exaltation to godhood).
- The Mormons have a saying: "Salvation without exaltation is damnation."
- Therefore, a Mormon can, with a straight face, tell you he believes you are "saved," while he also believes you are damned.
Christian answer:
- We define salvation according to what we are saved from. We are saved from sin and from the wages of sin death.
- To be saved from sin is to be justified and sanctified. To be saved from death is to receive eternal life (Rom 6:22, 23).
- Being saved, justified, sanctified and given eternal life by the grace of God are all things which are interconnected in the Scriptures. There is no biblical basis for separating them (Rom 5).
- Seeking exaltation is contrary to the spirit of Christ. We are rather to humble ourselves, recognize our sinfulness and call upon the Lord for mercy and forgiveness (Js 4:6-10).
Why the Mormon hope is not the Christian hope:
- It is the hope of the male Mormon to progress to the point where he will be a god like God the Father and be ruling over his own planet. This is "exaltation," and depends upon the Mormon "Plan of Eternal Progression."
- The hope of Mormon females depends upon their being married, in a temple ceremony, to a Mormon male who achieves exaltation.
- Mormon women married to non-Mormons ("Gentiles") can arrange for a "temple sealing" (marriage by proxy) to a Mormon male after their death. This is to assure that in eternity they are considered to have been married to and produced their children from a Mormon husband so that they and their children can be exalted.
- Mormon males expect to produce offspring in heaven with their mate(s), offspring who will subsequently be sent to populate their planet and achieve their own exaltation to godhood and so on and so on…
Christian answer:
- The God of the Bible is the Creator and God of all the universe, of all worlds, not just our planet. He made man for Himself and in His image to be in communion with God and enter into the love of the Holy Trinity.
- When man fell into sin and marred the image of God in his own being, the second person of the Trinity became incarnate taking human nature to Himself.
- He then did what He could not do in the form of God: He died to save us from sin and death, so that we could come back into communion with God and share the love of the Holy Trinity. Our hope is to be with God, not to be God (Gn 1-3; Phil 2:5-11).
When Talking to a Mormon
Remember that the Mormon is trained to hide the difference between his beliefs and yours and to present himself as a Christian. However, his belief that he is a Christian is sincere, and his efforts to hide the distinctives of the Mormon religion are pursued in his desire to get you to accept Mormon teachings.
Do not allow glib, surface responses to go unchallenged; press the Mormon to define the Christian-sounding words he is using.
Define your own terms also. Draw the contrast for the Mormon. Calmly and clearly insist that what you and he believe about the nature of God, the identity of Jesus, the nature of man, salvation and eternal life are different. To pretend otherwise is dishonest.
Appeal to his honesty and sense of fairness. You might say, "Look, we are not going to get anywhere unless we are honest with each other. Without making any statement about which one of us is right, can't we just acknowledge that we do not worship the same God?" or "Can't we just acknowledge that we do not have the same hope for the future?" Help the Mormon to consider the logical and philosophical problems with the Plan of Eternal Progression.
If God had a Father and He had a Father and so on then who was the first God? Mormons say it is an "infinite regression." But since there is no way to cross an infinite distance or pass an infinite amount of time, there would be no way to get to "now" and to "us" from an infinite past. Time has to have had a beginning and it did. It began with the creation "of all things seen and unseen" by God. Mormons say that God is omnipotent (almighty, all-powerful), yet they say there are many Gods. There cannot be more than one omnipotent being, so the Mormon conception of God is shrunken and distorted.
A big selling point of the Mormon hope for the future is the idea that families will be together eternally. But if Mormons become Gods of planets and then their children become Gods of other planets how do the children and parents get together? Can a God leave his planet unattended while he goes to a celestial family reunion? This Mormon selling point would be diminished if we Christians were more vocal about our hope for the "new heavens and new earth" in which we know one another in the all the relationships of our present lives, only in glory (2 Pt 3:13; Rv 21:1).
Welcome the participation of Mormons in causes which we share for the common good: strengthening family life, fighting pornography and abortion, fostering the virtue of patriotism. We honor each Mormon as a person who desires what is genuinely good for himself, his family and his society and when we share the truths of the Christian faith with him.
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TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; Ministry/Outreach; Other Christian; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: bible; christian; islam; ldschurch; letsallhatemormons; mormon; zaq
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To: KateatRFM
Dear KateatRFM, I was never a Mormon and yes, their timing is indeed convenient. If they changed their "standards," what does it say about their faith?
Best regards
81
posted on
10/17/2005 5:22:09 PM PDT
by
kosta50
(Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
To: kosta50
***FR needs more such informative posts.***
There used to be lots of really informative posts here a few years back, giving out more info than one could take in.
Then someone got to squalling like a cat with it's tail caught in a ringer crying "abuse!" so the mods stepped in and had to crack a few heads to get everything cooled down.
82
posted on
10/17/2005 6:17:03 PM PDT
by
Ruy Dias de Bivar
(When someone burns a cross on your lawn, the best firehose is an AK-47.)
To: NYer
Mormons want you to believe that they are "Christians" and that their church, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints," is just another Christian denomination. Mormons themselves believe that they are Christians and that their church is the only true church.Wow. They sound like a bunch of Catholics.
83
posted on
10/17/2005 6:18:22 PM PDT
by
Texas Eagle
(If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all.)
To: NYer
I want to know more about the Uma and the Thurman stuff.
84
posted on
10/17/2005 6:19:52 PM PDT
by
Texas Eagle
(If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all.)
To: NYer
What does Mormonism teach about praying to Mary?
85
posted on
10/17/2005 6:20:55 PM PDT
by
Texas Eagle
(If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all.)
To: Pessimist
Your scenario makes no sense to me, although I have read it in New Age and other occult literature. I won't call you sacrilegious, just deceived, as many are. Do you mind if I remember you in my prayers?
86
posted on
10/17/2005 6:34:47 PM PDT
by
ladyinred
(It is all my fault okay?)
To: jo kus
You have to admit that this is an extremely subjective means of determining the content of Scripture. Considering how easy it is for humans to delude themselves - knowing about the Fall of Adam and Eve, do you think God is going to rely on the "Spirit" enlightening every individual Mormon? No, I believe that God will enlighten anyonenot just Mormonswho asks him in faith. That is what Jesus taught:
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. (Matthew 7:78)
Is personal revelation from the Holy Spirit subjective? Perhaps. But so are faith, hope, and charity, which are essential to a Christian life.
To: Ragtop
My niece is a Mormon, and she has confirmed to me every thing this article says about their beliefs many times.
88
posted on
10/17/2005 6:42:21 PM PDT
by
ladyinred
(It is all my fault okay?)
To: colorcountry
Moroni (not sure of the spelling)
89
posted on
10/17/2005 6:45:51 PM PDT
by
ladyinred
(It is all my fault okay?)
To: Ragtop
My apologies, I didn't think about the first couple of beliefs.
90
posted on
10/17/2005 6:47:18 PM PDT
by
ladyinred
(It is all my fault okay?)
To: Logophile
You need not take my word for this. The Book of Mormon itself promises that anyone who reads it and asks God with real intent will receive confirmation from the Holy Ghost that it is true. This is a dangerous circuitous route. A book tells you to believe and to ask with "real intent" and receive confirmation that it is true. The formula used with anything, word, or doctrine will lead to self-deception. First convince yourself it's true...then ask and you'll get a "feeling" or burning in your bosom that tells you your right!
The Lord tells us that many people will be deceived by false doctrines. They will say that their doctrine is of Christ, is the Way, is the Truth, and is the Word of God. But, the Lord warns us to be cautious of what man tells us, as stated in the following verses:
Matthew 24:4,5 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ: and shall deceive many.
Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men,
Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments (basic principles) of the world, and not after Christ.
Proverb 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof are the ways of death.
91
posted on
10/17/2005 9:27:59 PM PDT
by
colorcountry
(George W. Bush... Saving your ass whether you like it or not!)
To: rdb3
I've been as critical as anyone about LDS theology. The difference between GRPL members who have been banned and me is that I maintain a degree of civility when pointing out the errors of Mormonism.
To: Heyworth
The problem with Turtledove is that he apparently cranks out a 900 page book every three weeks. You can NEVER catch up.
That is one of my complaints about good authors, I outstrip them and read faster than they write!
93
posted on
10/18/2005 4:18:03 AM PDT
by
Dominick
("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
To: Coleus
I understand the BSA has a special handbook just for mormon scouts too..No suprise there. LDS has been the largest single supporter of BSA. Not sure about recent years. One could say BSA is the LDS youth program.
94
posted on
10/18/2005 4:19:09 AM PDT
by
DaveMSmith
(Thought from the eye closes the understanding, but thought from the understanding opens the eye. DLW)
To: AlaninSA
Smith also attempted to corrupt the KJV Bible in his strange book called "the Book of Mormon."The Book of Mormon is available in just about any Mariott hotel room.
95
posted on
10/18/2005 4:28:52 AM PDT
by
DaveMSmith
(Thought from the eye closes the understanding, but thought from the understanding opens the eye. DLW)
To: Logophile
No, I believe that God will enlighten anyonenot just Mormonswho asks him in faith. That is what Jesus taught: So what test do you use to determine that you are not being duped by the devil or yourself? Quite frankly, all thoughts that enter into our mind are not God's Spirit enlightening us...
Regards
96
posted on
10/18/2005 5:00:42 AM PDT
by
jo kus
To: Doohickey; Religion Moderator
Kindly explain why posting this sort of article is an expression of good Christian values?The source of my previous 2 posts to this thread came from a fire breathing lesbian back when the gay community was after the Boy Scouts for banning homosexual Scout Masters. She was hellbent on trashing the Mormons - big and easy target.
The HBO series Angels in America went on to trash the Mormons in much the same way this thread is doing (underwear jokes, etc).
The LDS folks I know have more values in common with me than not. I'd take one for a neighbor any day.
97
posted on
10/18/2005 5:15:37 AM PDT
by
DaveMSmith
(Thought from the eye closes the understanding, but thought from the understanding opens the eye. DLW)
To: jo kus
So what test do you use to determine that you are not being duped by the devil or yourself? Discerning love of self and love of the world vs. love of the Lord and love of the neighbor is not all that difficult. That's what evil and falsities vs. goodness and truth boil down to, isn't it?
It's always good to realize when we are following the Lord's path and doing His will.
98
posted on
10/18/2005 5:28:56 AM PDT
by
DaveMSmith
(Thought from the eye closes the understanding, but thought from the understanding opens the eye. DLW)
To: DaveMSmith
Discerning love of self and love of the world vs. love of the Lord and love of the neighbor is not all that difficult. That's what evil and falsities vs. goodness and truth boil down to, isn't it? I am not speaking about knowing whether the Spirit is a driving force in one's life. I am refering to particulars of your faith - the content of Scripture and critical questions of the faith, such as "who is God?". The answers to these questions do not come from within, as Mormonism proclaims (the so-called "burning of the bosom"). How do you know you are not delusional regarding such matters?
Regards
99
posted on
10/18/2005 8:30:48 AM PDT
by
jo kus
To: andysandmikesmom; Ragtop
a Mormon, or a Catholic, or a Baptist As you say you are a studier, I hope and pray that your studies reveal to you, why the Baptist and Catholic can be lumped together, but the Mormon never can be, with them. It's a false religion. If that seems like an unfair "attack", well, Jesus Himself was very willing to be "offensive" when it came to the truth, that all would come to the truth and be saved. That is true love, not the liberal-minded "anything goes" mentality
100
posted on
10/18/2005 9:42:20 AM PDT
by
gamarob1
(.)
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