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Lefebvrist bishop says no reconciliation with Rome
SpiritDaily ^ | September 17, 2005

Posted on 09/17/2005 6:24:38 AM PDT by NYer

From CW News:

Sep. 15 (CWNews.com) - A bishop of the schismatic Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) has warned traditionalist Catholics the "heresy of neo-modernism" which, he says, now controls the Vatican.

In an email message to his supporters, Bishop Richard Williamson, an English-born prelate who now serves the SSPX in Argentina, said that there are enormous differences "between Catholic Tradition and the position's of today's Rome." He continued: "Between these positions, any reconciliation is impossible."

Bishop Williamson conceded that some traditionalists might accept an offer of reconciliation with the Vatican, but "the conciliar positions of today's Rome would still be as false as 2 and 2 are 5, while the Traditional positions would still be as true as 2 and 2 are 4."

The Lefebvrist bishop wrote his email message to explain why he had said-- prior to the September 1 meeting between Pope Benedict XVI (bio - news) and Bishop Bernard Fellay, the head of the SSPX-- that traditionalists would not be reconciled with the Vatican. He explained that if some traditionalists were to reach an agreement with the Vatican, others would resist-- "that if the Society [of St. Pius X] were to rejoin Rome, the resistance of Catholic Tradition would carry on without it."

Bishop Williamson, the most outspoken figure in the SSPX, is one of the four bishops consecrated by the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre in June 1988, in defiance of an order from the Vatican, prompting Pope John Paul II (bio - news) to announce the excommunication of the traditionalist leaders.


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; History; Ministry/Outreach; Prayer; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: pope; schism; sspx; vatican; williamson
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To: Vidi aquam
"What the CPA has done is bad, but it is not as bad as what the SSPX has done."

You apparently don't consider public support of abortion and birth control as serious a sin as I do.

Do you have a congenital inability to respond to what is being said?

We are talking about schism here. If you want to change the topic to abortion, be my guest, but don't pretend that I have already done so.

261 posted on 09/20/2005 7:27:11 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: sempertrad
Y'all have been asked repeatedly to source the Magisterial Teaching the Jews as a race are cursed. Y'all have failed.

Y'all appear to operate under the error of thinking all personal opinons of saints are Doctrine and that no saint could ever have possibly written or thought something contrary to Tradition.

Both beliefs are contrary to Tradition which helps all to see y'all know jack about Tradition.

Y'all put your heads together, freepmail one another, go into angelqueen or daily catholic or the Sedes' Harvest Ball or where ever it is your get your beliefs from and seek assistance in locating ONE Magisterial Document/Teaching that even remotely appears to resonate with the hateful antisemitic heresy held by the SSPX that the Jews as a race are cursed.

Until then, I couldn't care less about your attempts to twist things around and put any burden on me so as to avoid your obligation to prove the Catholic Chuch is wrong in teaching the Jews as a race are not cursed.

Y'all have been exposed as subscribing to the SSPX heresy the Jews as a race are cursed so it is up to y'all to prove your belief is consistent with Catholic Teaching.

BTW, I am getting the idea hatred of the Jews IS the glue binding the schism together; that the Mass is secondary and used as bait to trap the unwary.

262 posted on 09/20/2005 7:28:59 AM PDT by bornacatholic
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To: Hermann the Cherusker; Vidi aquam
We are talking about schism here. If you want to change the topic to abortion, be my guest, but don't pretend that I have already done so.

He's not changing the topic. When speaking of the CPA the two things can not be separated. Since you ignored my post 154 to you detailing the facts of this, I shall repost an excerpt here:

Over 100 bishops have been consecrated illicitly by the CPA without a papal mandate, in direct violation of the Code of Canon Law; worse still, those illicitly consecrated bishops publicly declared their primary allegiance to the Communist regime of China while disavowing (in the CPA Constitution) any allegiance or submission to the Pope. As a result, these illicit bishops and those who consecrated them, would be excommunicated latae sententiae (automatically), even if they were members of the Catholic Church, which they are not. In 1994 the CPA bishops issued a so-called pastoral letter in which they endorsed China's population control policy, which includes forced abortions on all women who have one child already, calling upon Chinese Catholics to support this abomination.

In short, the CPA is a Communist-created, Communist-controlled, blatantly schismatic, blatantly heretical, pro-abortion organization., created by the devil himself, acting through Mao Tse-tung and his successor "President" Jiang. And yet the Vatican has declared no schism, nor any excommunication of these Communist-controlled, pro-abortion clergy. Instead, Cardinal Etchegary went to China and celebrated Mass in the presence of CPA bishops in a Marian Shrine which the CPA, with the aid of Communist goons, stole from the Catholic Church and the Catholic faithful. Cardinal Etchegary even stated that he "recognized the fidelity to the Pope of the Catholics in the official Church [i.e., the CPA]." Fidelity to the Pope on the part of the bishops who endorse forced abortion and whose Communist-controlled association rejects the papal primacy in its very constitution? What sort of nonsense is this?

And yet you say, "What the CPA has done is bad, but it is not as bad as what the SSPX has done."

Yeah, OK.

263 posted on 09/20/2005 7:38:24 AM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: Vidi aquam; bornacatholic; ninenot; sittnick; onyx; Salvation; Romish_Papist; saradippity; NYer; ...
VA: [Don't quit reading until you see and read the last two paragraphs but don't read them out of order either.] VA: Well then, to seek to be a Catholic, heed the words of the Act of Contrition and avoid the near occasion of sin. One need not be a Catholic to maintain the moral discipline to avoid the community red light district. Likewise, one need not be Catholic to avoid the ecclesiastical red light district of SSPX which,, for its adherents (excommunicati per Ecclesia Dei), is not merely a near occasion of sin but sin itself.

Those who cherish the film Dr. Zhivago (in spite of the role of Gramscians in bringing Pasternak's manuscript novel to the West), may recall that very near to the end of the film, as KGB General Yevgraf Andreievich Zhivago (the Alec Guiness character) is trying to persuade the young girl whom he believes to be his niece that Dr. Yuri Andreievich Zhivago was her father and Lara Antipova her mother: "This man was your father. This woman your mother. Don't you believe (in a seductive tone of voice that would challenge Lucifer's talents)? Don't you WANT to believe?"

By analogy, the excommunicated and schismatic SSPX flatteringly and comfortingly whispers to you (and perhaps to your wife????) from its ecclesiastical prison: We (SSPX) are what you want the Church to be. We (SSPX) are, in fact, the Church. Don't you believe? Don't you WANT to believe?

The answer to SSPX is a resounding NO! However pretty the poison of the schism, SSPX is nevertheless poison.

Is your wife also an adherent of the Feeneyite cult of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus or of the actual Catholic understanding of that term? Remember that Protestantism is not called Protestantism for nothing. It is called Protestantism because it protests againt the Roman Catholic Church established by Jesus Christ Himself. In tactics, Feeney (until his recantation, repentance and restoration to the Catholic Church), Lefebvre and Martin Luther are of one anti-papal type.

If you believe what you claim as to the necessity of formal Catholicism to the salvation of your soul and that of your wife, then she and you are obliged NOT to adhere to SSPX and thereby NOT to apostasize.

A person is a Catholic or not. It is just that simple. The enemies of the Church are not within the Church. If you want to be a Catholic, believe the Truth. Do not succumb to the temptation to believe what you want to believe. Persuade your wife as well to believe the Truth and not what she wants to believe. Willful apostasy (SSPX) is not a path to heaven. Obedience to the Vicar of Christ on Earth is a more reliable route to salvation.

St. Francis of Assisi is reported to have said: "Preach the Gospel at all times, using words if necessary."

As to your last paragraph, you should live so long. Your horse's finish line might well be a pike held by the shade of old Marcel aiming the pike at your horse's chest. I guarantee your "horse" won't bowl me over. You underestimate the stubborn commitment of grizzled and aging Catholics to the One True Faith.

I will give you one thing. Your references to your wife prove that you have more understanding of love than most. She wants what is best for you and apparently has invested her resourcefulness in persuading you to share her faith (at the risk of temporary but necessary strife?) and ran the risk of aggravating you in order to truly love you. It sounds like your decision to marry her and her decision to marry you were in fact evidences of the kind of love that is very real and not at all what most of this world may imagine. It is your privilege to love such a woman back. Given your response to date, however imperfect, it is also her privilege to love you.

May God bless both of you and safeguard your (plural) arrival at His Truth.

264 posted on 09/20/2005 8:59:57 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: Vidi aquam; bornacatholic

VA: If you ever do become Catholic, you will understand bornacatholic and me so very much better than you understand us now. I promise to notice and I'll bet borncatholic will too.


265 posted on 09/20/2005 9:02:05 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: BlackElk


Bless you my dear, dear FRiend. I think the world of you. :)


266 posted on 09/20/2005 9:32:55 AM PDT by onyx (North is a direction. South is a way of life.)
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To: TheGeezer
The rest of the piece is just like this portion. Claim upon shaky conclusion upon legalistic, pharasaical definition, it goes on and on, almost stating that the Council of Trent is superior in teaching authority to the pope, but-not-quite.

How ironic coming from you! The idea that any Pope can say anything and it trumps whatever came before...

Oh, I also Dogpiled Father Paul Kramer and discovered he is one of the Fatima third-secret conspiracy advocates. It just figures.

Ah the old ad hominem of conspiracy theorist. Of course conspiracies, like black helicopters, couldn't possibly exist until they are proven. Anyone who believes otherwise is a kook. Honestly, this does get tiring...

267 posted on 09/20/2005 10:05:15 AM PDT by TradicalRC (Benedicamus Domino.)
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To: murphE
When speaking of the CPA the two things can not be separated. Since you ignored my post 154 to you detailing the facts of this, I shall repost an excerpt here:

Sure they can, just like I have not brought up Lefebvre's comparison of the Pope to the Antichrist (ala Huss and Luther), or the SSPX setting up marriage tribunals and giving away vacations to nude beaches.

I'm here to discuss schism. If you want to widen the topic, I've already been there and done that, and don't feel a need to rehash.

268 posted on 09/20/2005 10:42:03 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: BlackElk
By analogy, the excommunicated and schismatic SSPX flatteringly and comfortingly whispers to you (and perhaps to your wife????) from its ecclesiastical prison: We (SSPX) are what you want the Church to be. We (SSPX) are, in fact, the Church. Don't you believe? Don't you WANT to believe?

An excellent analogy! Bless you, BE, and prayers for VA and family.

269 posted on 09/20/2005 11:30:48 AM PDT by NYer
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To: bornacatholic

What beliefs are those? So far, you've yet to accurately portray any positions set forth by the SSPX.

Honestly, who does pay you to do this? Cardinal Mahoney? Hans Kung? No one in their right mind could be so wrong and not have it be deliberate.


270 posted on 09/20/2005 12:31:50 PM PDT by Gerard.P (The lips of liberals drip with honey while their hands drip with blood--Bishop Williamson)
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To: NYer

Be careful NYer. Your Maronite priests might be tickling your ears with a number of lies, errors and fallacies.

I can give you the name of a Maronite priest that doesn't believe in Angels, the filioque, the real presence as understood by transubstantiation. (He said transubstantiation is wrong now.) Or the necessity of the Resurrection of the body.

And he's in good standing with both the diocese and the eparchy.


271 posted on 09/20/2005 12:47:11 PM PDT by Gerard.P (The lips of liberals drip with honey while their hands drip with blood--Bishop Williamson)
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To: bornacatholic; murphE
Y'all have been asked repeatedly to source the Magisterial Teaching the Jews as a race are cursed. Y'all have failed.

Y'all have not asked we'all for any such thing. We'all never said the Church ever taught such a thing as doctrine. Our'alls point was that if the Church never said St. Alphonsus deviated from Church teaching for believing in this curse, then y'all have no right to condemn as heretics anyone who might see things as St. Alphonsus saw them.

Y'all appear to operate under the error of thinking all personal opinons of saints are Doctrine and that no saint could ever have possibly written or thought something contrary to Tradition.

So's ya'll are sayin' that St. Alphonsus wrote and thought contrary to Tradition. The Church has never said any such thing about St. Alphonsus. Ya'll have proved time and time again that yer judgments and knowledge on most thangs Church ain't so hot. So if someone wants to share St. Alphonsus' opinion on the matter, ya'll can't come along and shout "Heretic!" just cuz ya'll don't like what's bein' said and who might be sayin' it.

Y'all have been exposed as subscribing to the SSPX heresy the Jews as a race are cursed so it is up to y'all to prove your belief is consistent with Catholic Teaching.

And ya'll are a hypocritical coward - So quick to pin ye olde "heretic antisemite" label on the Society but avoiding yer arm-chair declaration of St. Alphonsus' heresy for speaking the same thang simply because it would expose ya'll for the ignoramus ya'll are.
272 posted on 09/20/2005 1:29:47 PM PDT by sempertrad ("You call this a multi-media event? This is a slide projector and a bedsheet!" - A. Asparagus)
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To: Gerard.P
Are you yet another who believes that as a race the Jews are cursed by God as the sspx clearly teaches?

I have posted what the Catholic Church actually teaches about that issue. I have posted what the SSPX teches about the Jews being cursed. Is is precisely the opposite of the hateful antisemitic heresy taught by the sspx and embraced by the schismatics in here.

If Y'all have a single reference from oh, say, Denzinger, or Tanqueray, or Ott, or Neuner and Dupuis, or Jurgens, or, Proem, or any Papal Encyclical, or any Ecumenical Council or any approved Catechism - produce it and post it.

All other pings will be seen for what they are - attempts to distract others from the ugly evil facts

We Catholics know no such Teaching exists. It doesn't exist now. It didn't exist in the 16th century, or the 15th century, or the 12, or the 8, or the 6, or the 1st Centuries.

It does exist in the hearts and minds of those in the schism. Hatred of the Jews, I am learning, is what binds those in the schism.

The "Mass of all times" is the honey that sweetens the poison; the mass is the honey that masks the poison of antisemitism that schismatics drink to their own destruction.

For some reason this thread has caused schismatics to reveal their evil beliefs. That has real benefit for all concerned, especially lurkers. Y'all are now known for who you really are. Your arguements, such as they are, will receive even less credibility in the future

May God have mercy on your souls

273 posted on 09/20/2005 1:58:48 PM PDT by bornacatholic
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To: sempertrad
*Y'all have been asked repeatedly to source the Magisterial Teaching the Jews as a race are cursed. Y'all have failed.

Y'all have not asked we'all for any such thing.

* Yeah, I have. Post #192, among others.

274 posted on 09/20/2005 2:13:54 PM PDT by bornacatholic
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To: Gerard.P
I can give you the name of a Maronite priest that doesn't believe in Angels, the filioque, the real presence as understood by transubstantiation.

Nothing like dangling a phony carrot to tempt a 'bite'. By all means, provide the name, parish and eparchy of this Maronite priest. I'll "bite".

275 posted on 09/20/2005 4:11:57 PM PDT by NYer
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To: Gerard.P
I can give you the name of a Maronite priest that doesn't believe in Angels, the filioque, the real presence as understood by transubstantiation. (He said transubstantiation is wrong now.) Or the necessity of the Resurrection of the body.

And, while you're at it, please cite dates, times and related conversations to justify your phony claim.

276 posted on 09/20/2005 4:16:53 PM PDT by NYer
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To: sempertrad; bornacatholic
Our'alls point was that if the Church never said St. Alphonsus deviated from Church teaching for believing in this curse, then y'all have no right to condemn as heretics anyone who might see things as St. Alphonsus saw them.

Believing that the Jews are a cursed race is not heretical. However, it is a minority interpretation of Sacred Scripture that was eventually rejected by the Church. No Catholic should hold it because "the rest of the things which the sacred Council sets forth, since they are the teaching of the Church's supreme magisterium, ought to be accepted and embraced by each and every one of Christ's faithful according to the mind of the sacred Council" (Declaration of the Theological Commission of Vatican II, March 6, 1964) and since "the Council ... provided us teaching with the authority of the ordinary Magisterium, which must be accepted with docility" (Pope Paul VI, General Audience, Jan 12, 1966). This does not mean that St. Alphonsus was a heretic, or worthy of censure, any more than the definition of the Immaculate Conception by Bl. Pius IX made Sts. Thomas and Bernard heretics.

True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ; still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. (NA §4)

277 posted on 09/20/2005 4:22:44 PM PDT by gbcdoj (Let us ask the Lord with tears, that according to his will so he would shew his mercy to us Jud 8:17)
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To: BlackElk; bornacatholic; murphE
Ok since I'm sitting in the Spoon-Feeding Only section:

1. Bornacatholic pulled up a snippet of an article from The Angelus as his "evidence" of the "heretical antisemitism" of the SSPX.

2. I pulled up quotes from various saints whose expressions echoed the expressions in said article. My reasons for that was to show that the article was no deviation from anything various saints have taught.

3. My personal agreement/disagreement with those expressions of belief in a "curse" never entered into the picture. I was pointing out that if bornacatholic believes the Society is "heretical" or "antisemitic" then he must condemn St. Alphonsus and other saints who said similar things about this "curse" as heretical antisemites.
278 posted on 09/20/2005 4:34:08 PM PDT by sempertrad ("You call this a multi-media event? This is a slide projector and a bedsheet!" - A. Asparagus)
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To: TradicalRC
How ironic coming from you! The idea that any Pope can say anything and it trumps whatever came before...

It is not ironic at all, of course. A pope cannot say anything to change a dogma. You have defined something that is not a dogma or doctrine as dogma or doctrine. Your definitions have no authority. One cannot set oneself up as equal in teaching authority to the pope, can one? Yet you have, have you not? It is not I who engage an ad hominem attack: you assail the pope as a fraud, if you say he has no authority in these matters. It is you who assume what is not yours, the keys of Peter!

The pope has spoken also, concerning the third secret of Fatima. He - Pope John Paul the Great - said it was revealed as it was supposed to be revealed, and he also taught that Russia had been consecrated to the Blessed Virgin. But those who are superior to the pope teach otherwise, eh?

Yes, honestly, this gets so tiring...

It is not I, unworthy as I am, who has condemned SSPX. It is not I who speaks with authority regarding papal teaching authority. I merely repeat what the Church and the pope himself teaches. That is why I can speak with confidence: I do not contradict what Jesus teaches through the pope, I merely say what He has stated.

279 posted on 09/20/2005 5:44:01 PM PDT by TheGeezer
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To: TheGeezer
A pope cannot say anything to change a dogma.

No kidding.

You have defined something that is not a dogma or doctrine as dogma or doctrine.

Really? Where?

One cannot set oneself up as equal in teaching authority to the pope, can one? Yet you have, have you not?

No and No.

It is not I who engage in ad hominem attack:

"Oh, I also dogpiled Father Paul Kramer and discovered he is one of the Fatime third-secret conspiracy advocates. It just figures."
-TheGeezer, Post 214

Of course not.

you assail the Pope as a fraud, if you say he has no authority in these matters.

No, I do not. First, I did not say that he doesn't have authority in these matters and second, I am well aware of the Magisterium's distinguishing between infallibility and impeccability with regard to papal authority.

Yes, honestly this gets so tiring...

Indeed it does, maybe you should take a nap.

280 posted on 09/20/2005 8:28:46 PM PDT by TradicalRC (Benedicamus Domino.)
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