Posted on 06/02/2005 2:57:54 PM PDT by LauraleeBraswell
What does your religion say about our beloved pets in the afterlife? Dogs? Cats? Does your pet have a soul? Do you believe they go to heaven, or simply out of existance?
And what do you tell your six year old when Fluffy the formerly lost hamster turns up dead in the hallway closet? "Fluffy doesn't exist anymore?" Is a dog different from a hamster?
What's your religion and what does it say?
You are asking the wrong person. I can't even pronounce Ecclesiastes.
Ah. Yes, I see from your profile that you would not know this information.
Perhaps someday you will.
I answer that, Since the renewal of the world will be for man's sake it follows that it should be conformed to the renewal of man.
If the renewal of the world is for man's sake, then is it not possible that God will re-create the forms of our beloved pets and establish them in a state worthy of the renewal?
I'm not sure what scripture you are referring to. The Bible refers to animals as souls. A soul is a life. The Hebrew is "nephesh" (literally means 'that which breathes') the Greek is "psykhe".
Genesis 1:20,21 - "20 And God went on to say: "Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls and let flying creatures fly over the earth upon the face of the expanse of the heavens." 21 And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind. And God got to see that [it was] good."
Leviticus 24:17, 18 - "In case a man strikes any soul [ne´phesh] of mankind fatally, he should be put to death without fail. And the fatal striker of the soul [same word, ne´phesh] of a domestic animal should make compensation for it, soul for soul."
Rev. 16:3 - "It became blood as of a dead man, and every living soul [psykhe] died, yes, the things in the sea."
The Bible repeatedly refers to living creatures, be it animals or humans, as souls.
God creates our soul at the moment of conception, and since it has no parts, it is indestuctable.
None of what you said is anywhere in Scripture. Here is how the Bible describes the creation of a soul:
Genesis 2:7 - "God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul [nephesh]."
We are not GIVEN souls, we ARE souls. God made us physically from dust, breathed his spirit (the breath of life, Hebrew ruach) into man , and he BECAME a living soul. The soul is the combination of the physical form plus the breath of life. This applies to animals just as it applies to humans, and the Bible repeatedly refers to animals as souls, I have given some examples already.
You will find nothing in the Bible about souls being indestructible. You will find exactly the opposite. Matthew 10:28 says right out that God DESTROYS wicked souls in Gehenna.
Ezekiel 18:4 - "Look! All the souls-to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son-to me they belong. The soul [nephesh] that is sinning-it itself will die."
Souls die, and the Bible is filled with scriptures that talk of souls being destroyed or dying.
Our soul utilizes our fleshy intellect currently, but once we die, our soul will still have access to some sort of intellect - it will no longer be limited by our human brains.
That is not a Biblical concept at all and you won't find it in scripture. The Bible plainly describes what happens to our "intellect" when we die.
Eccl. 9:5 - "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten."
Eccl. 9:10 - "All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol, the place to which you are going."
Conscious of nothing at all....no knowledge...no wisdom...no work...this is how the Bible describes our state at death.
What exactly is God breathing life back into? Our body? There is no resurrection of our own individual bodies until the final resurrection at the end of time.
First of all, there have already been resurrections. Jesus resurrected a number of people, the young man at Na'in, Lazarus. His apostles also resurrected people. And Elijah and Elisha performed resurrections. These people died again, but God has certainly shown the ability to resurrect the dead. I'm not sure what the purpose would be of being resurrected "at the end of time" (as opposed to after Jesus becomes king over all), but I do believe that there will be a resurrection to everlasting life, out of the grave.
Acts 24:15 - "and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.
Revelation 20:12, 13 - "And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds."
As to how God is capable of resurrecting people who drowned in the sea or whose bodies have decayed, I don't know and we don't have to (see 1 Cor. 15:35-38, about asking that question). The Bible is very clear that there will be a resurrection of dead ones. See John 5:25-29 for example.
The soul doesn't die upon our body's death. This has been an enduring belief since before the Greeks.
That may be why when Paul first mentioned the resurrection to the Greeks, they laughed according to Acts 17:32. Many cultures have believed that there is something conscious that lives on after death, including the Romans and the Babylonians. But it isn't taught in scripture.
Actually, the notion that we don't actually die goes all the way back to Eden. That's what Satan told Adam and Eve, that they wouldn't die. So they sinned, and God told them "from dust you are, to dust you will return". So Satan lied.
The wages sin pays is death. Not everlasting life of a different sort. But death. The Bible does not say we continue to live after we die. If we continue to live after we die, then why would there need to be a resurrection, which means to bring back to life? Yet the resurrection hope is talked about by everyone, from Abraham to John.
I know the Greeks believed in the immortality of the soul. But the Bible teaches us that there is to be a resurrection from the grave, not an avoidance of it through some immortal "essence" that never dies and floats around and is "highly aware"!
I think this is the scripture you are thinking of (from post 31):
Genesis 1: 26-29
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on th face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
Everything will be as it was in the beginning except for sin,pain, and death and yes it appears God created Dog and cat in the biginning
Wait, So according to Christianity when one dies he or she doesn't go anywhere? We all just cease to exist?
This, I believe, is the current teaching: that the pets get to heaven inasmuch as we need them there.
My theology, while too revolutionary to be orthodox, is much simpler and wholly scriptural: they already are in Heaven, because they never left it.
It is true that many moderns thinks of soul in the antique Greek rather than the Christian sense., in part because they identify soul with consciousness. Descartes' idea.
How about other non-human mammals with fur and even invertebrates?
Rabbits, gophers, mice, frogs, dragonflies, mosquitos, ants, fleas, catfish and salmonella bacteria.
What, dogs are special? I object!
My pet python and goldfish are going to heaven too!!
no
You said "...I'm not sure what scripture you are referring to. The Bible refers to animals as souls. A soul is a life. The Hebrew is "nephesh" (literally means 'that which breathes') the Greek is "psykhe"."
The Hebrews and the Greeks had different definitions of what a soul is. When the Hebrews refer to soul, they are refering to a life, true. But that encompasses both spirit and the flesh. When Hebrews are speaking of soul as we do (or the Greeks), they would mention the spirit. Since this conversation is in regards to life after death, we should use terminology that is comparable with our own. Thus, the Hebrews refering to an animal's soul is not to be taken that they believed that animals have a soul.
You said "...We are not GIVEN souls, we ARE souls."
Again, terminology. When Christians speak of the soul, they are refering to the spiritual portion of a man, not the all-encompassing material and spiritual substance that makes up a person.
You said "...You will find nothing in the Bible about souls being indestructible. You will find exactly the opposite. Matthew 10:28 says right out that God DESTROYS wicked souls in Gehenna."
I disagree. First, "destroy" doesn't necessarily mean annihilate, but can also mean:
a)to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
b) render useless
c) to kill
d) to declare that one must be put to death
e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
Considering that Jesus is clear that Gehenna is ETERNAL punishment, the word "destroy" doesn't mean to annihilate, it means "lost" or "ruined". As in that person's point of existence, to be united with God in eternity, is over, never to be realized.
Here is a passage from Isaiah that Jesus will refer to later: And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Is 66:23-24)
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:43-48).
Here, Jesus talks about the fire that will not be quenched and the worm will not die, refering back to the prophesy of Isaiah. Hell is eternal, and the worm will not die, nor is the fire quenched for those who are going there.
By the way, your Mat 10:28 verse, you should look at it more carefully! If the soul = the body as you imply, why...
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Seems like Jesus refers to the body and the soul as two different things!
You said "...That is not a Biblical concept at all and you won't find it in scripture. The Bible plainly describes what happens to our "intellect" when we die.
Eccl. 9:5 - "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten."
Eccl. 9:10 - "All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol, the place to which you are going."
Conscious of nothing at all....no knowledge...no wisdom...no work...this is how the Bible describes our state at death."
Perhaps you should read ALL of Ecclesiastes. The author goes on about the worthlessness of pursuing this and that, as all things end in dust. However, read the last chapter...
"Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: AND THE SPIRIT SHALL RETURN UNTO GOD WHO GAVE IT. (Ecc 12:6-7) Here, we see an example that the soul we are discussing = spirit to the Hebrews. It doesn't die. And yes, God gave us our soul {spirit, to Hebrews}. The existence of Hades in Hebrew theology is proof that there is an existence after death.
You said "...First of all, there have already been resurrections."
Just one, Christ. The rest, including Lazarus, were resucitations. Lazarus body died again. As to the "why", so that we, too, may rejoin with our body. We, as Christ, will have a glorified body which will reunite with our soul/spirit that never dies. Paul in 1 Cor 15 declares that the body, also, will be raised, although in a different form (glorified, as Christ post-resurrection Body).
You said "...That may be why when Paul first mentioned the resurrection to the Greeks, they laughed according to Acts 17:32. Many cultures have believed that there is something conscious that lives on after death, including the Romans and the Babylonians. But it isn't taught in scripture.
Seems you are not sure which it is. Jesus says that God is the God of the living. He refers to the God of Jacob and Isaac. They were long dead. Yet, He is there God. The spirit continues to live. Next, what about when Jesus descends into Hades to collect those just men and women of the OT after His resurrection. Their spirits were alive. What about the parable of Lazarus and the rich man? Lazarus, though having died, is very much alive. The Greeks laughed at Paul because he taught that the body, too, would have eternal life. This is not a Greek idea, since the Greeks had the idea that the spirit was imprisoned by the body and only upon death would it be free to realize its potential. (Plato).
You said "...The wages sin pays is death. Not everlasting life of a different sort."
Jesus has payed the "wages" of sin for us. It only remains for us to accept Him and obey Him.
You said "...If we continue to live after we die, then why would there need to be a resurrection, which means to bring back to life?"
Good question. Now, let's look at Christ. His Body died. But what happened? His Spirit continued to live. He went into Hades to bring the just back to heaven. He then resurrected, reuniting with His Body, now a glorified body. It had the ability to walk through walls and travel great distances quickly. Certainly, there are other powers. One of the foundational tenets of Christianity is that we will become like Christ. This includes His resurrection. Over and over, Paul discusses this syn Christo theme (like Christ). And so, when we die, our spirit will still live, either in heaven or hell. At the final resurrection, all things will be in Christ. The recapitulation. And we, originally meant to be material and spiritual beings, will rejoin with our material portion of our being - in a glorified body.
Ah, the fortunate fault of Adam, that we have such a future in store for us. Things will be better for those of the Church, the people of God, then would have been without Adam's fall.
Regards
Will there be breading, herbs and seasonings in heaven?
What do you make of the fact that "zoe" and "psyche" are used interchangeably in the Gospel?
so, you trust in your love for your animal more than your love for God?
As a Lab owner, I can't see nothing for our pets, but from what I have read, pets will not be there. But I doubt that God would condemn our pets to nothingness.
Christ returns with the angels all on white horses. I don't think there is any question about it.
"Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit you would stay out and your dog would go in."
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