Will nice people (in the Matrix) be saved?

Monergism.com ^ | John Hendryx

[thePilgrim]

Will Nice People (in the Matrix) Be Saved?
by John Hendryx

"We must not suppose that if we succeeded in making everyone nice we should have saved their souls. A world of nice people, content in their own niceness, looking no further, turned away from God, would be just as desperately in need of salvation as a miserable world." (C.S. Lewis)

A reader recently responded to the above quote by Lewis with the following remark:

"True, but at least there would be less hatred!"

His answer is really how most of us naturally think. But helping to make people nice and moral is like putting a Band-Aid on cancer. Although many Christians may think making America more moral by strong political lobbying is our highest calling it may come as a surprise that morality and and making people nice is not our commission. We have not been mandated by God to do this and I believe this a diversionary activity. If the heart is not transformed or regenerated, all we do, then, is redirect the sin. We then make people into Pharisees and Jesus said that by making somebody a convert to our morality, we merely make him "twice as much a son of hell as [our]selves." This is just repackaged legalism, attempting to attain godliness by a systematic change of behavior which does not spring from a renewed heart.

Our condition is really worse than we ever imagined and we rarely take this very seriously. As an analogy, we could liken our spiritual condition to the the well-known movie, The Matrix. Humankind, in the movie, is blinded to the real world and is really made a slave to serve the interests of something else (batteries for the machines). Those caught in matrix are unaware of their own wretched condition and they go about their business completely oblivious to their plight. Morpheus points out, “the world that has been pulled over our eyes to blind [us] from the truth” and that humans are “slaves” in “bondage.” Reality is no different. Just try and perfectly obey God's commandments for a day and you'll know what I mean. God and our condition can only be known, however, as He reveals Himself in the Scriptures as the Holy Spirit opens our eyes that we might see - and He first reveals our fallen condition as being blinded so that we cannot see the truth:

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Corinthians 4:3-5

In one scene of the movie Morpheus says, "Many of [the people in the Matrix] are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it." Then in a similar vein the Apostle Paul likens our real condition to one of bondage where we actually do the enemy's bidding for him and tells us that with gentleness we need to correct those in opposition to the gospel if perhaps God may grant them repentance so....

"...they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. (2 Tim 2:25, 26)

Amazingly, The Matrix shows a deep grasp of our real world condition, whether consciously or not. The Scriptures testify that our problem is not just one where we need to be nice or moral. Just imagine in the movie, if Neo, knew the enslaved condition of mankind (blinded to the truth and made a slave to the machines), would he then waste his time telling people how to be nice or teach them how to change their behavior? If instead of helping to free people from the matrix cyber-prison, Neo decided that the solution was to tell people how to be good and tolerant as an answer to their problems, you would think he was out of his mind, engaging in worthless diversionary activity and we might have him institutionalized. But don't we often, as Christians, waste our time with similar thinking?

Using a similar analogy, theologian R. B Kuiper says,

"A man has been found guilty, shall we say, of a heinous crime and has been sentenced to death. He is now in prison, awaiting the day of his execution. A friend comes to visit him. This friend calls out: "I have good news for you!" Eagerly the condemned man asks: "What is it?" The answer comes: "Be good." In that message there is not so much as a shred of good news. It is most cruel mockery. Yet many a self-styled minister of Christ holds forth to sinners under the sentence of eternal death a precisely equivalent message as gospel."

Bad behavior is really only a symptom of a much greater concern. Likewise, the natural man is in bondage to his fallen nature and chooses only what that inner principle desires most. At the fall we lost the indwelling of the Spirit and now the Scripture testifies that the resulting consequence we find ourselves in is that we are hostile to God, hate the light and no one understands because the things of the Spirit are foolishness to us (John 3:19, 1 Cor 2:14). The real world and our true purpose remains hidden from our eyes due to no fault but our own. Without the supernatural intervention of God to redeem us we are caught in a situation worse than that of the Matrix. In the movie Neo says to Morpheus that he had been looking for him all his life. Morpheus tells him that this is only because he was looking for him first. This is similar with God toward us. He calls us out of darkness, out of slavery to sin and to the devil who has taken the natural man captive to do his will. Our desires are for things we have replaced God with, paltry and vain things. While we build up our dunghill here with our material possessions and pride that replaces the true God with ourselves, God has created us to inherit a much greater promise, the restoration of our original purpose. Don't get me wrong, certainly, as Christians,we ought to be engaged in building up culture, and we should be taking the lead, but a desire to do good does not come about by law, which does, however, serve a positive function of restraining evil. But if we really want to transform society and culture, the inward principle of grace must first take place in individuals. Law is powerless to change their hearts. This new desire will only come to unbelievers by a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit in the heart which changes their dispositions, thoughts, inclinations and affections so that they might delight in doing good. Spiritual resurrection is needed in those dead in sin who have been taken captive to do the will of another. The people trapped in the Matrix could not see beyond the limitations imposed by their captors. Their primary need, before all others, was to have a true view of who they were and what their condition was. Then and only then can life be lived in truth.

It is not about niceness or morality... it is about our condition. If everyone become moral tomorrow it would have no consequence on our enslavement. What we need is the new birth, a resurrection of our soul, a restoration to God's original intent for humankind. What we need is the gospel. Theological liberals and conservatives alike need to recognize that our spiritual condition is much worse than we had thought. The conservatives have a tendency to condescendingly to look down at people with moral corruption and behaviorisms like sexual impurity, homosexuality and adultery all the while forgetting that God is equally if not more angry at pride, anger and bigotry. They are just as dreadfully cracked about the head and desperately in need of mending as the liberal. God's wrath hangs over those who trust in good works, those who somehow really are tempted think they are more deserving than another. Jesus said that many will come to Him on that Day and say, "did we not do [this or that] in your name." Jesus said he never knew them. Why? Because they trusted in themselves, in their goodness, rather than on the finished work of Christ. We must remind ourselves daily that it is grace, grounded in the redemptive work of Christ ALONE that saved us. You are just as much a child of wrath as the liberal if you think you are more deserving.

The liberals then come and say we need to be tolerant and embrace diversity, allow for people of all orientations to continue in their ways since we now know that this is natural and this is who they are. In doing so, they also promote a change of behavior that conforms to the socially constructed philosophy of the day, as gospel. Thus, being taken captive by the culture around them, they strip the gospel of all supernatural influence and fail to recognize that, we all are naturally incapable of obeying God and the gospel. There is no one who is naturally inclined to the humbling terms of the gospel. Prior to God's work of regenerative grace we all have an inward natural principle which is bent on rebellion against God. Conservatives and liberals alike are hold in common the fact that they are spiritually impotent and in desperate need of regeneration. The "world that has been pulled over our eyes to blind us from the truth" (Morpheus) needs to fall like scales from our eyes (like Paul). Both groups need to repent of trusting in their good works and despair of any hope from themselves, which is the first (graciously bestowed) prerequisite of a sound conversion. The good news is that in the gospel God reveals the same righteousness and faith for us that God demands from us. What we had to have, but could not create or achieve or fulfill, God grants us freely, namely, the righteousness of God (2 Cor. 5:21) and the faith of Christ. The faith we have is ours but it arises from a new disposition of heart that God freely gives those He came to save. As Jesus said to Nicodemus, "we must be born again."

[PetroniusMaximus]

Thanks for the reply and for the interesting discussion...


*** It means that man's many good works, even though in accord with God's commands, are not well pleasing to God when weighed against His ultimate criteria and standard of perfection.***

How does one reconcile that with the example of Cornelius...?


"About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, "Cornelius." And he stared at him in terror and said, "What is it, Lord?" And he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God."

[GLENNS]

Wouldn't common grace make us all commonly good?

No, "only God is good". Common grace are those graces that prevent men from being utterly depraved.

I don't think common grace can account for... "...Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God."

No, but general (creational) Revelation does. (Psalm 19, 24; Romans 1)

[PetroniusMaximus]

***Common grace are those graces that prevent men from being utterly depraved.***

So is the idea of total depravity kind of a theory (except in the most extreme cases) since all people experience common grace?

Does common grace plus general revelation allow people to do things which please God?

(I'm asking myself these questions to.)

[185JHP]

BTTT

[thePilgrim]

Generally, I'm in complete agreement with the author.

But I've always found puzzling those portions of the Gospel where Jesus praises people for their virtue, i.e. the widow with the mite, the centurion with faith, etc.

It seems that some pre-regeneration action can elicit the praise of God. That seems to be somewhat at odds with the harsher statements of total-depravity that I've heard or even verses like "all our righteousness is as filthy rags" etc.

Thoughts?

Let me start by saying that I don't think that all the righteousness of those who have been regenerated are filthy rags.  In fact, I stand with my fellow Calvinist Baptist brother John Piper on this one:

It's true--gloriously true--that none of God's people, before or after the cross, would be accepted by an immaculately holy God if the perfect righteousness of Christ were not imputed to us (Romans 5:19; 1 Cor 1:30; 2 Cor 5:21).  But that does not mean that God does not produce in those "justified" people (before and after the cross) and experiential righteousness that is not "filthy rags."  In fact, he does; and this righteousness is precious to God and is required, not as the ground of our justification (which is the righteousness of Christ only), but as an evidence of our being truly justified children of God.

 

(The Purifying Power of Living by Faith in... FUTURE GRACE by John Piper  pg, 151)

Zacharias and his wife Elizabeth are describe in this way:  "They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord" (Luke 1:6).  Their righteousness was not filthy rags.  And, it wasn't ONLY the alien righteousness of Christ.

 

Please note that we Reformed believe that our justification before God which merits salvation is only the alien (imputed) righteousness of Christ.  Zacharias and Elizabeth lived lives of habitual obedience and faith to God, but their obedience does not merit salvation.  It only takes one sin to separate man eternally from God.  Next to the Divine standard our works truly are as filthy rags which cannot merit any kind of salvation.  However, that doesn't mean that God is not pleased with the obedience of his children.

 

I believe that the same can be said about Cornelius.  It is merely a presumption that he was not already regenerated before his prayer to God.  You need to know that I think that, historically, Reformers have used the terms regeneration and conversion differently than they may be used today.  Therefore, using an older meaning the terms, I believe Cornelius to have been regenerated but not converted to the Lord.  I also do not think this the norm for the way God brings his children into right relationship with him, but that the Lord was pleased by this to demonstrate to the Apostles that "God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life."

 

Now, as to what I believe, and I am not alone in this belief, the true interpretation of Isaiah 64:6 and the filthy garment verse you cite is that this is speaking about hypocritical righteousness.

In the context Isaiah 64:6 does not mean that all righteousness performed by God's people is unacceptable to God.  Isaiah is referring to people whose righteousness is in fact hypocritical.  It is no longer righteousness.  But, in the verse just before this Isaiah says that God approvingly meets "him who rejoices in doing righteousness" (v , 5).

 

(The Purifying Power of Living by Faith in... FUTURE GRACE by John Piper  pg, 406)

And, here is Charles H. Spurgeon on the same verse (it is rather long, but extremely good)

A SIGHT OF SELF.

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities. But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.”- Isaiah 64:6, 7, 8.

IT is easy to commit sin, but hard to confess it. Man will transgress without a tempter; but even when urged by the most earnest pleader, he will not acknowledge his guilt. If we could but bring men into such a state of heart that they felt themselves to be guilty, there would be hope for them; but this is one of the most hopeless signs concerning our race, that it is so hardened and so perverse, that even when sin stares it in the face, it still pleads innocence, and proudly lifts up its head and challenges the accuser. Transgressors always seek to escape from the painful and humiliating duty of acknowledging their offenses. Some seek to hide it both from themselves and others, silencing their own conscience, and throwing dust in the eyes of their companions; like Achan, digging in the earth to hide the Babylonish garment and the wedge of gold, they forget that their sin will surely find them out. As the foolish ostrich, when pursued by the hunters, buries its head in the sand, and when it cannot see its enemy, thinks it has escaped; so these men take the fact that they are undiscovered by men, and are at peace with themselves, as a good omen, whereas it is a sad sign of hardness and blindness of heart. Many pursue another course, and make excuses for their offenses. They did do wrong, it is true, but then there is much to be said in extenuation; like Aaron, they urge the clamours of the people, or they will have it that even Providence itself compelled them to sin. “I cast gold into the fire, and there came out this calf,” as if sin were an accident, and not a wilful wickedness; as if disobedience to God were a sort of necessity of nature, and not a direct rebellion of the will against the Majesty of heaven. Others, too, will throw their sin on their fellows-a trick which they learned of our first parents, for Adam, in the garden, said- “The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree and I did eat;” or they may have learned it of our mother Eve, for even she understood this stratagem- “The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.” So they will have it that they were dragged into sin by force; that they were over-persuaded or craftily enticed, so that they ought not to be considered as accomplices in the crime-that they are, in fact, only the instruments of others’ sins, and could hardly resist, so that others must take the whole of the guilt, and they themselves go scot free. Some who have attained to a higher pitch of brazen impudence, will actually deny altogether that they have sinned; will come before God’s servant as Ananias did before Peter, and say, “Yea, for so much,” while yet they are holding a lie in their right hand. We have some who will stoutly say, “We have not sinned,” and who think themselves insulted if in plain terms you accuse them of having violated the law of God. There are some also, and those not a few, who endeavor to color their sins, and to cloak them with a profession of godliness, by attending to the ceremonies of religion with ostentatious carefulness. Like the Pharisees of old, they devour widows’ houses, but they make long prayers. They hate Christ in their hearts, but they tithe mint, and anise, and cummin; they violate the precepts of the law, but they bind it on their foreheads, wear long fringes on their garments, and write texts of Scripture on the door-posts of their houses. These serve at the altar of the devil, in the garb of God’s priests, and offer unclean flesh upon the high places, in pretended honor of the God of Israel. We know that all these classes abound everywhere, for a man will do anything to hide sin from himself; and he will give skin for skin, yea, all that he hath that he may be self-justified, that he may have somewhat to answer when he stands before the Most High, that he may find food for his pride, and a coverlet for the infamous arrogance of his heart. He will dig, and labor, and strive, give his goods to the poor, and his body to be burned, that he may win a righteousness of his own. Beloved, if you and I have ever been partakers of the grace of God, we have been brought to the distasteful duty of confession of sin, for it is not possible that we have been pardoned if we have refused to acknowledge our guilt. We cannot be partakers of the life of God in the soul if still we can say, “Lord, I am righteous, and of myself I can plead exemption from thy curse.” A clear sense of our lost estate is absolutely necessary to make us even seek for pardon. As the man who thinks himself in good health will never send for a physician, as the man who is sufficiently warm will not avail himself of an extra garment which is proffered to him, as the man who is not hungry will not accept an invitation to a feast of charity, so we find that none will come to Christ but those who feel that they must come, and that out of him they are utterly lost, ruined, and undone. Moreover, as none will seek the mercy till they know their need, so we may rest assured that none would value that mercy even if it were given to them before the spiritual poverty had become manifest. What is medicine to the healthy man? Send it to his door, and what thanks will you receive? You have been guilty of an impertinence. Why offer charity to the man who is rich and increased in goods? Will he receive your dole? Will he not turn up his heel and tell you to find out the beggar in the street, but not to mistake him for one who needs your alms? Even, I say, should God give salvation to those who feel no need of it, they would not value the priceless boon. This diamond of God would be to them but a piece of valueless broken glass; this gem from heaven but as a pebble from the brook.

“What comfort can a Savior bring

To those who never felt their woe?

A sinner is a sacred thing;

The Holy Ghost has made him so.”

 

It is certain that God will never give pardon to those who do not confess their need of it, for it is not consistent with the sovereignty and dignity of God that he should present pardon to the man who will not first honor God’s law by pleading that he is guilty. If a man shall still say, “I have not broken the law,” is God unmerciful if he refuse to forgive him? Dost thou harden thy brow like iron, and thy heart as adamant, and wilt thou accuse God of want of love, if he say, “I will send no mercy to that man, neither shall he find pardon at my hands, ‘but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word?’” Is it any wonder, I ask you, that he should pass by the proud and the self-righteous and leave them unblest? By their own profession they do not want his mercy; they declare they do not need to be forgiven. Then perish! Perish! for ye righteously deserve it. Go down to the hell which ye have chosen by your pride, and reap the fruits of your own wilfulness, but impugn not the tenderness of God, if he adhere to this inviolable rule, that if we will not confess our sins we shall perish in our guilt;

 

“For Christ as soon would abdicate his own,

As stoop from heaven to sell the proud a throne.”

In the service of the Lord,
Christian.

[GLENNS]

Does common grace plus general revelation allow people to do things which please God?

Wrong question. Right question: Does common grace plus general revelation allow people to see themselves in relation to God? Yes. Is this enough to bring people to a saving knowledge of God. No. A second "book" is needed, the divine Scripture.

Article 2: The Means by Which We Know God
We know him by two means:

First, by the creation, preservation, and government of the universe, since that universe is before our eyes like a beautiful book in which all creatures, great and small, are as letters to make us ponder the invisible things of God: his eternal power and his divinity, as the apostle Paul says in Romans 1:20.

All these things are enough to convict men and to leave them without excuse.

Second, he makes himself known to us more openly by his holy and divine Word, as much as we need in this life, for his glory and for the salvation of his own.
Belgic Confession

As for that which is good in God's sight I'll quote Calvin:

Therefore, as we ourselves, when we have been engrafted in Christ, are righteous in God’s sight because our iniquities are covered by Christ’s sinlessness, so our works are righteous and are thus regarded because whatever fault is otherwise in them is buried in Christ’s purity, and is not charged to our account. Accordingly, we can deservedly say that by faith alone not only we ourselves but our works as well are justified.

[GLENNS]

Brother, even I can quote a good Baptist.

What distinguishes a reformational worldview is its understanding of the radical and universal import of both sin and redemption. There is something totalitarian about the claims of both Satan and Christ; nothing in all of creation is neutral in the sense that it is untouched by the dispute between these two great adversaries....Everywhere the things of our experience begin to reveal themselves as creaturely, as under the curse of sin, and as longing for redemption. (Albert Wolters, Creation Regained, pp60,72)

In a similar vein someone from the redemptive-historical school:

The antithesis between our sin and God's grace is big as life itself. It takes shape in two opposing kingdoms. It is embodied in covenant-keeping and covenant-breaking. By virtue of God's "general grace",however, human corruption never comes to its ultimate and absolute expression in the here and now. That is reseved for the hereafter....The antithesis refers to the running encounter between two conflicting ways of life, pulling us in opposite directions. Both total depravity and the antithesis are therefore directional and orientational concepts. The same is true of God's preseving grace as it impacts the structures of life, upholding and governing them. By it he curbs and inhibits the forces of sin and evil, holds the creation order intact, and checks the outbursts of human depravity, thus allowing the historical drama of the antithesis to run its appointed course. Conservingly, therefore, as well as redeemingly, this is still "the day of grace". (Gordon Spykman, Reformational theology, pp 320-321)

[little jeremiah]

I agree with some of the author's points - for instance, that mere morality is not transcendent; that what we really need is to love God with all our hearts. A person can be very moral, all for self centered reasons that have nothing to do with wanting to serve God in love.

But at the same time, if the culture is hellish, as it is now, peoples' hearts become harder and harder the more egregious and vicious sins are accepted as normal and natural, thereby making it more difficult for them to hear God in their hearts or respond to His voice.

I also disagree that there is no Holy Spirit in peoples' hearts; my study and practice shows me that God is indeed in everyones' hearts, the Soul of our soul, but most of us don't hear Him much.

But that's a fine point.

[thePilgrim]

Before I head out of town today, I wanted to drop an idea. I don't think that PetroniusMaximus has firmly grasped everything we have said. It makes sense to us because we speak the lingo, but we may need to fill in the dots for him.

Specifically, I don't think he completely understands what we mean when we say Total Depravity and I'm almost sure he missed the link between Total Depravity and common grace and why even a "good" work performed under common grace is still considered an "evil" work under the definition of Total Depravity. Some Scriptural interpretations would also probably help in this regard.

Perhaps he can sort it out for us and when I get back I can help. I believe I have at least one Scripture verse to provide an interpretation for discussion as well.

In the service of the Lord,
Christian.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I don't think he completely understands what we mean when we say Total Depravity...

Here's a link to a short article on man's carnal nature (worth posting on its own):

"Saved By Grace – What Can a Dead Man Do?" by Dave Hatcher

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." -- Romans 8:7-9

I'm not a fan of using the term "Common Grace" because I think it dilutes the singular and specific meaning and intent of the word Grace.

All men feel the sunshine on their faces; all men can taste the milk and honey of God's earth; all men can relate to their surroundings in a mututally-beneficial way. That is the fiber of carnal man.

But because of Adam's fall, carnal man is dead to God and cannot do anything God-pleasing unless and until God regenerates man's dead corpse into a spiritual living being in Christ.

It's either/or. We are either carnal man or spiritual man, ordained by God from before the foundation of the world. Our job as Christians is to gratefully preach the Gospel to all nations and races in order that those whom Christ came to gather may hear the Word and be saved by His grace alone. The Good Shepherd will lose none of His sheep. Yet like the thief on the cross, none of us knows the hour of our salvation.

"Man's mind is like a store [factory] of idolatry and superstition; so much so that if a man believes his own mind it is certain that he will forsake God and forge some idol in his own brain." -- JOHN CALVIN.

As Michael Horton wrote: "We cannot find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a police officer."

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Ping to #30; your time-difference always has me confused. 8~)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Yeesh. MORE COFFEE...

Ping to #30.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

God is indeed in everyones' hearts, the Soul of our soul, but most of us don't hear Him much.

The problem is this belief is unScriptural and leads to a real misunderstanding of God's creation. But it is definitely the mantra of modern man.

The idea that God is actually "in all of us" is a gnostic, Platonic concept which permits man to think of himself in God-like terms and abilities apart from Christ. All sorts of mischief and error results from not understanding the difference between carnal man and spiritual man.

Only God saves. The ears with which we hear or ignore the Gospel were created and given by God, according to His plan for salvation from before the foundation of the world.

"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day" -- Romans 11:7-8.

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -- John 10:25-29.

[little jeremiah]

The Vedas say that God is in everyone's heart, and that's my authority. Just as the body cannot live without the soul, similarly, the soul cannot exist without God's presence.

I don't expect you or anyone else to accept on my say-so, but since it does say in the Bible that all are children of God, I think we could agree on the point that God is the Father of all.

Let us say that all souls have the potential and duty to become the good children of God, not the rebellious prodigal sons that we presently are.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Just as the body cannot live without the soul, similarly, the soul cannot exist without God's presence.

That statement consists of vapor; it's meaningless.

Let us say that all souls have the potential and duty to become the good children of God

Let's not. All souls do not have the potential to become the good children of God.

Read the parable of the wheat and the tares. God plants each according to His will. None of us really knows who's who until the harvest. But we can have a pretty good idea by the fruit each person displays.

Good fruit; wheat.

Bad fruit; tares.

[little jeremiah]

We will have to agree to disagree; at least we're both on the same side of agreeing that God exists, that He has made laws that all humankind must follow, and that we should follow them!

[thePilgrim]

Are we done?

Christian.

[PetroniusMaximus]

Are we done?

I believe so.

Would you be so kind as to turn off the lights when you leave. :)


(And thanks for the discussion!)

[Colin MacTavish]

I'm sorry, but I don't buy the idea that the unregenerate can do some things which are good, but yet the man is still "Totally Depraved."

BTW, brother, how did you like the way I introduced you at the table during lunch?

[thePilgrim]

***BTW, brother, how did you like the way I introduced you at the table during lunch?***

Man, you need to warn me before you do that again. Introducing me to a table full of AOG Pentecostals as a 6-Point Calvinist because "he fully believes in burning heretics" was wild. I thought that one woman was going to fall out of her chair or choke on the taco or something.

The only way you could have gotten a bigger effect was by bringing a gas can with you.

I'll get to your issue with Total Depravity later.