Posted on 01/27/2005 9:08:45 AM PST by Zyke
If christians use God's laws as a moral compass, what do atheists use to guide their moral belief? How do they know what is right and wrong? Why do they follow any laws at all?
I am just seeking some knowledge to help me understand.
Morality, for those who do not follow any pre-defined, religious sources for moral guidelines, probably derive their morals from their parents, their friends, and what is known as "socially acceptable behavior".
But where do their parents and friends get their morals? And how does society define "socially acceptable behavior". That has to be a source for objective morality.
Read Aristotle - NICHOMACHEAN ETHICS - One must be virtuous [ethical] in order to live a happy life... No God required.
The self-proclaimed atheist is a self-claimed absolute relativist,...therefore, 'to know' for him is dis-allowed.
He'll find out about 'know' in hell if he doesn't trust/believe the 'Truth' of his saviour Jesus Christ.
St. John 14:6
Or the Kantian categorical imperative. Fifteen minutes of googling would have told the questioner everything he might have wanted to know about this, but of course that's not the point here.
I believe it's built-in...that's why people have differing moral views.
objectivism and Ayn Rand is the way I do it. But I do know that the Torah has many good morals.
Look throughout history...different societies at different times had different morals...I don't believe there is objective morality...why do you?
Hopefully you are a better person than Ayn Rand was.
The 'golden rule' - treat others as you'd like to be treated, does not need the fear of hellfire or promise of heaven to work as an effective guide. I think that if we grow up right as balanced, sensitive and observant people - regardless of faith or affiliation - the outlines of what's right and wrong are not only fairly clear but also inherent in ones' heart. Perhaps you would see this as a manifestation of God's will that has the potential to run in us all. I am not a Christian, but know - in a deep, beyond intellectual fashion - that hurting people is wrong and helping people is right. The inability to truly accept or live up to these standards at some times is what makes me [and the rest of us] human and - in (I imagine) your terms - in need of faith.
I wonder, in pose your question in reverse, is it only the heaven / hell thing that keeps Christians on the right path? I imagine not, and that they don't need to think of God before thinking twice about doing something wrong.
Does that mean all non-Christians go to hell?
Ayn Rand was fine. Tell me what was so bad about her. hmmm?
Ask Jesus when you see him.
While I will not defend atheism, it is a bit naive to think that moral rules can only be known by divine revelation and further, that atheists are by definition, moral relativists. That is simply not true. One can observe human behavior and derive a perfectly sound set of rules and values to govern social groups.
For example: Thou Shall Not Kill is pretty obvious to most people. If you want to get along in a group it is simply wise to make an agreement not to kill each other and punish those who violate the rule.
BTW, I would not give you as strong an argument if you had said that most moral relativists are atheists (at least at heart). That is much closer to the truth. The opposite is simply not true. There are many moral, upstanding, responsible, Christian Law abiding atheists.
Revelation 21:8
The simple reality is that most of the rules put forth by religion (most religions have a core set of rules that are common) are just plain good ideas that make for a more functional society and subsequently have a solid secular use. Let's take a look at the base rules of Christianity, the Ten Commandments:
1 - 4 are solidly religious in nature and would, obviously, not be very useful to an atheist.
5 - Honour thy father and thy mother - one's father and mother are the first authority figures in your life, they are your instructors and protectors, and the only people in this world with a good reason to help you out of a jam. Good people to stay on good terms with.
6 - Thou shalt not kill - from a societal level murder is considered the ultimate crime, if there's strength in numbers the pointless reduction of those numbers weakens a society.
7 - Thou shalt not commit adultery - the family unit is the building block of society, adultery weakens the strength of the family and weakens society.
8 - Thou shalt not steal - trust is another important factor in a society, the society that cannot trust itself must devote energies to defend itself from itself that could be better used elsewhere
9 - Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour - another trust building rule, when neighbors lie about each other no good will ever come from it
10 - Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's - this really builds on 7-9, when you don't covet what your neighbor has your less likely to take it, whether that taking be adulterous, theft or lies against him.
So here we see that 6 of the 10 commandments (a solid 60%) have excellent secular ussage to build strong societies filled with people that contribute to the whole and through said contributions improve their own lives. And you will see variations on these 6 rules in most of the world's religions, and even in atheist philosophies like the Natural Laws. But let's take it further, there are 14 other less talked about rules in Christianity, the are the 7 deadly sins and 7 holy virtues, lets list them, Sins:
pride, envy, gluttony, lust, anger, greed, sloth
Virtues:
faith, hope, charity, prudence, justice, temperance, fortitude
Now what we see in those are again solid peaces of advice, only one of which is religious in nature and one can argue that faith doesn't have to be in God but can also be in your be in your fellow man and society, that will help a person lead a longer more fulfilled life and also help society as a whole.
So in the 24 big rules we have 19 that are solid universal rules that apply primarily to secular society and make just plain good sense regardless of ones religion, 1 that applies equally to both the secular and nonsecular sides of life, and 4 that are 100% religious in nature. And those 19 universal rules exist in many forms throughout the world, in religious, philosophical and legal discussions. And that is where atheists get their morality.
Sounds like a plan...
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