Posted on 09/20/2004 7:38:56 AM PDT by NYer
Taking a break from judging annulments earlier today, I visited a number of French traditionalist websites. I also had the opportunity, yesterday, to speak with a friend of mine who is a canonist from France following the situation as well as another friend who keeps tabs on the traditionalist movement in both the English and the French speaking world. Everyone agrees -- the situation has degenerated into total chaos, as nobody knows exactly what is going on with the highly-respected French SSPX clergy that have criticized what they see as the SSPX's growing rigidity.
It does appear that Rome has refused to take competency over the case, more-or-less stating that the SSPX denied Rome's jurisdiction over them when Lefebvre carried out a schismatic act through the 1988 episcopal consecrations. Beyond that, Rome refuses to comment other than to say, "Our door remains open for their return to full communion."
Beyond that, the rhetoric, polemic and accusations suggest that indeed civil war is breaking out among the laity and clergy within the SSPX's French District. In fact, two websites have now popped up that are exclusively devoted to tracing all the news stories associated with the crisis. What I find personally find interesting is that every news report, commentary, polemic, etc... mentions Fr. Aulagnier's expulsion from the SSPX around this time last year.
In the months that followed, it appears that the SSPX more-or-less tried to sweep Fr. Aulagnier's expulsion under the rug. But in so doing, even the regime currently in charge of the SSPX had to admit the important role played by Fr. Aulagnier in the founding of the SSPX. This is probably why the SSPX appeared to hope the issue would go away.
Yet it is also well-known that Fr. Aulagnier was a close friend of Fr. Laguerie as well as Fr. de Tanouarn -- two of the SSPX's leading priests. (As Fr. Laguerie's assistant, Fr. Henri appears to have just happened into the situation). It is also well-known that a number of French (and some American) SSPX priests were not happy with Fr. Aulagnier's expulsion. Therefore, I will venture to guess that the current SSPX chaos is the effect of Fr. Aulagnier's expulsion coming back to haunt Bishop Fellay. As for the particular details, this is the first time in almost fourteen years of being a traditionalist that I find the fog of war too thick to reasonably discern what is going on. (What I find even more troubling is that behind the scenes, under the flag of truce, other SSPX and traditionalist commentators with whom I am in contact have admitted to having the same problem.)
So if I can end on a personal note to the moderate SSPX clergy and their supporters who follow this blog, I'm more than happy to abide by the flag of truce and keep you guys in prayer while you fight whatever battles need to be fought, but I honestly cannot make heads-or-tails of what is happening. But like Rome has said, the door is open for you to return. I will pray that God gives you the necessary strength to walk through it.
"No less devoted to the little saint was our beloved St. Pius X. Costly gifts, among them the magnificent gold ring already mentioned, were given by him to her shrine. He often spoke warmly of her and manifested his devotion to her in various ways. Pope Saint Pius X raised the Archconfraternity of Saint Philomena to a Universal Archconfraternity and named St. John Vianney its Patron. This Pope and great Saint of Holy Mother the Church solemnly declared:
'...to discredit the present decisions and declarations concerning Saint Philomena as not being permanent, stable, valid and effective, necessary of obedience, and in full-effect for all eternity, proceeds from an element that is null and void and without merit or authority.' (1912)"
Why, it almost seems as though you are calling a Sainted Pope a liar. Interesting.
Yes, but has JPII endorsed her?
Although the sky is blue where I am, the pope was overheard this morning saying it looked like rain today, so I am carrying my umbrella so as not to be schismatic.
LOL! "Rash judgement" is not grave matter unless it involves my taking your life.
Merely pointing out that all priests and bishops of the SSPX are excommunicates is a fact. Nothing rash about that.
LOL! "Rash judgement" is not grave matter unless it involves my taking your life.
Merely pointing out that all priests and bishops of the SSPX are excommunicates is a fact. Nothing rash about that.
To my knowledge, Pope John Paul has not said anything regarding St. Philomenia, but since when does a Saint need to be personally accepted by each pope in order to be venerated?
Helllllloooooo...the rash judgment is that he is personally "excommunicating" all those who defend the Society.
You honestly believe that?
If I do not answer some particular post by the sulfurous schism, as ever, that silence ought not be construed as agreement. Many of the schismatic posts do not merit response and many of us have real lives to live. SSPX is engaged in a never-ending ad campaign which is nothing more than a recruiting scheme based upon the schismatic profession of hatred toward pope and Church as though that might make the schism the Church.
It IS remarkable how seldom any of the schizzies are seen on threads not dealing with advertisement of the schism. They are about as Catholic in confrontation with the world as is Ketchupboy. That silence is truly deafening and quite determinative of what the schism is.
Sorry, it was sarcasm.
Absolutely. You believe that jumping to a conclusion merits eternal fire? What's wrong with you?
Whoops - didn't realize which side of the debate you were on.
You don't think that rashly judging someone to be excommunicated from the Church is a grave sin against the Eighth Commandment?
Not even venial.
You do not get to subjectively define yourself as a Catholic any more than Ketchupboy gets to define himself as pro-American.
1. JP II excommunicated each and every one of the SSPX bishops. I accept papal judgments. You apparently do not. You are not alone in this. However, it marks you as not Catholic.
2. You attend "Society" Masses. So what? I have never claimed that you are not allowed even by the Vatican to do so. As has been hashed out here endlessly, SSPX Masses are valid and may serve to fulfill Sunday Mass obligations. The Vatican says so. You may even give money to SSPX solely to defray the expense of such Masses. That is your strawman, not mine.
3. I never said YOU were excommunicated. If you adhere to SSPX, you may well be excommunicated, according to the Vatican. I follow the Vatican. If you are an SSPX bishop, it is quite clear that you are excommunicated. The pope says so and he, not you and not Fellay or any other excommunicated bishop, makes those decisions. JP II has the keys. The schismatics and excommunicati do not and will not.
4. I lose no sleep over the disposition of the souls of Luther, Calvin, or Zwingli and I lose no sleep over the disposition of Marcel, patron whatever of the maliciously and malignantly perturbed and disturbed.
5. I cannot imagine that it is grave matter, much less mortally sinful, to agree with the pope's judgment as to the status of SSPX and its excommunicated heroes and leaders. This is well-considered judgment and not rash at all. SSPX is just another YOPIOS, YOPIOT, YOPIOF smog factory against the Faith and against John Paul II and against the papacy itself.
6. If you want to call yourself Catholic, you need to submit humbly to papal authority and reject the schism.
7. If you are in danger of ADHERING to SSPX, then the SSPX Mass is, for you, a near occasion of sin that, when you receive the sacrament of penance, you promise God you will avoid.
Proof:
A. Do you accept the fact that John Paul II is pope since the moment he was installed in 1978?
B. Did John Paul II excommunicate Marcel Lefebvre and his illicitly consecrated Econe 4 for his and their schismatic act of refusing obedience to the Holy Father whom Marcel and they swore solemnly before God, as a condition of his ordination, to obey?
C. Did John Paul II declare SSPX a schism?
D. Do you think that self-serving schismatic rationalizations are an adequate substitute for papal authority?
Game, set, match, regardless of answers. You are either Catholic or you are not and, IF you are schismatic, you are not. You may not adhere to the schism but I would be hard-pressed to prove your non-adherence. If your tastes have been offended, too bad. Grow up!
Fifthmark: If you think it is morally acceptable to call yourself Cathlic while defending the "Society?" Draw the line between "defending" and adhering. Do you adhere to the "Society?"
Fifthmark: If you think it is morally acceptable to call yourself Catholic while defending the "Society," draw the line between "defending" and adhering. Do you adhere to the "Society?"
Say's Law works on the Internet too. If bad money drives good money out of circulation, bad manners drive good manners off the web.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1997), 2477-2478:
"Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury. He becomes guilty:
- of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;
- of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another's faults and failings to persons who did not know them;
- of calumny who, by remarks contrary to the truth, harms the reputation of others and gives occasion for false judgments concerning them.
To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor's thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:
Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another's statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved."
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