[ksen]

Ping!

[Freedom'sWorthIt]

The entire Word of God (The Holy Bible) is 100% true. We ignore it to our peril. Paul was God's servant, just as was Moses, David, and others whom God used to pen what HE wanted the World to KNOW. All fallible human beings. But God's Word is INFALLIBLE in that HE, as infinite Creator God saw to it that what was written was and is the Truth.

Paul is hated by modernists. But, so is Jesus Christ, Lord of Lords, and King of Kings.

[familyop]

The original writings of Paul were very Gnostic works--the going thing in those days. They were later rewritten to reflect prevailing Roman beliefs.

[JenB]

Trying to promote Calvinist/Arminian harmony by picking a topic we agree on? Or Catholic/Protestant harmony?

/Going back into super-secret lurk mode before one of the HHDs says he knows where I've been

[bondserv]

But what do you do when confronted with someone who says that Paul's interpretation of God's doctrine is fallible because it came from a man like us, albeit a man somewhat closer to God than we are.

What are your thought? And remember to keep it civil.

I believe Paul was clearly inspired by the Holy Spirit in a supernatural way to write his epistles. From his conversion, to his outreach to the Gentiles, to the revelation God gave him regarding the mystery of the church, to his end time teachings...

Also Paul's doctrine lines up with Old Testament nuggets of truth that have taken two thousand years and more to dig up. His books are truly integrated into the whole of scripture, evidencing eternal origins.

[TotusTuus]

But what do you do when confronted with someone who says that Paul's interpretation of God's doctrine is fallible because it came from a man like us, albeit a man somewhat closer to God than we are.

St. Paul, as an individual man was fallible. In writing those Epistles that are included in the Canon of Scripture he, like all other human authors of Scripture, was under the freely given influence and inspiration of the Holy Spirit using him as an active instrument so that they are truly the word of God.

This is a miracle of the intellectual order.

[Zack Attack]

Was Paul inspired? I believe so. Yet, still, I never approach his writings as if he is perfect. Paul spoke often of his own opinions on subjects and several times stated such.

I test all writings against Torah. They must line up with Torah or not be accepted. Occasionally, I can't quite clarify one thing or another, and have to put something on the back burner until I am able to clear it up. Sometimes I need a bigger stove. LOL.

Yet, Paul was of the school of Hillel, trained by Gamliel, and if you know anything about them, you know Paul knew the Torah.

[bobjam]

Truth is truth, regardless of how many people believe it. Many people used to believe the world to be flat, but that didn't make the world flat. God's Truth (i.e. Jesus) is true, ragerdless of how many people believe Him.

Doctrine is the Church's attempt to put into words the Truth (or principals) that is revealed. For example, "I AM the Lord thy God Who brought you out of bondage in Egypt. You shall have no other gods before Me" is revealed Truth. The ultimate revealed Truth is Jesus Christ.

Doctrine, or the words that the Truth is communicated in, can be alterred by individuals, denominations, or the Church at large. However, these changes do not change the Truth, they simply change the doctrine from being an accurate communication of the Truth to heresy. The Epistles of St Paul the Apostle are an accurate communication of the Truth of Jesus Christ.

Christians should seek after the Truth, not simply doctrine.

[thePilgrim]

My apologies if I have pinged you and you do not wish to be drawn to this thread.

Ksen, you may want to keep the identity of the poster secret, but I know the poster and it does confirm some of my fears. To deny the inspiration of Scripture is a pretty serious crime against the Logos of God.

Some might be tempted to speak to this person about the status of his/ her faith, but I think it evident that would be ill advised. My advice is to simply let it drop with the knowledge that he is in the hands of the halitosis theopneustos Logos. It is nice to know these things, though, as it lets us know how we should act and what we should expect on this forum.

I am somewhat curious to know if the Presbyterian seminaries are teaching this now. This was a part of the reason that the Episcopalians in the US have fallen apart and it does appear as if the PC(USA) is following behind them. Now, isn't that interesting and sad that the 2 dominating denominations at the time of the gift to us of the Constitution and this country are precisely the 2 denominations which are the ones falling to pieces?

In the service of the Lord,
Christian.

[Corin Stormhands]

Whatever the intent, it's a awkward sentence.

Could mean ~ doctrine is man's interpretation of God's law which includes the writings of Paul...

OR Could mean ~ doctrine is man's interpretation of God's law for example Paul's writings...

I'd have problems with both versions, but the second seems more troubling.

And yes Jen, I know where you've been...but I'm not supposed to be here either...

[HarleyD]

I've seen these types of arguments used against ALL the scriptures including the Torah. "Moses didn't really write the Torah but they were copied down later-blah, blah, blah." (Even though after Joshua's attack at Ai it says, "he [Joshua] READ all the words of the law...there was not a word of all that Moses had commanded which Joshua did not READ..." Joshua 8:34-35) Someone not so long ago was arguing with me about Kings not being accurate because there were verses that didn't fit his way of thinking.

Basically, if the scripture doesn't fit somebody's preconceived notion then the scriptures are in error and you disregard it. You become like Thomas Jefferson cutting out verses that doesn't fit with your way of thinking and wrapping your theology around what's left. It's no different then making golden calves and saying "Here are your gods."

[asformeandformyhouse]

Are the Pauline Epistles just as much God's Word as the Gospels are?

The gospels (M,M,L and J) are not autobiographies. They were not written by Jesus. I don't see why one should assume that they hold a higher level of authenticity than Peter's or Paul's epistles.

2 Timothy 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[rdb3]

I had a professor in undergrad school who placed less emphasis on Paul's epistles than on other portions of Scripture.

We were discussing homosexuality in an ethics class. He did not see anything wrong with homosexuality because Christ never condemned it in the Gospels. When confronted with Romans 1, for example, he just said that those were Pauline writings.

And to be totally honest, this professor was not a flaming leftist. His ideas went more libertarian than anything.

Paul's epistles are just as valid and carry as much weight as the other Apostles' epistles.

$710.96... The price of freedom
VII-XXIII-MMIV

[Cvengr]

There were 12 apostles with supernumery powers provided as a gift from the Holy Spirit and to whom Christ appeared after His resurrection. see Matt 15:7-11

All of the original apostles were visited except for Judas Escariot, who was replaced by Paul. (Mathias was voted upon by the other apostles, but the soveriegnty of the Holy Spirit provides the spiritual gift of apostleship, not the volition of man. (see 1Cor 12:11, 28,; Acts 1:15-27)

It is also noteworthy that the other 11 apostles were apostles to the Jews, whereas Paul was the apostle to the Romans, an even more significant title.

The gift of apostleship is a spiritual gift provided by the Holy Ghost. Paul testifies to that gift, as well has his journey on the road to Damascus and his later conversion. He was also chosen by Christ for apostleship (see Eph 4:11)

[Cvengr]

Simple answer to those stating Paul was a man like us, is to direct him to consider Paul's selection as an apostle as a spiritual gift, which was removed after the completion of the canon of Scripture.

[k2blader]

Was Paul writing Scripture?

Yes.

Are the Pauline Epistles just as much God's Word as the Gospels are?

Yes.

as the giving of the Mosaic Law?

Yes.

:-)

[Celtman]

But what do you do when confronted with someone who says that Paul's interpretation of God's doctrine is fallible because it came from a man like us, albeit a man somewhat closer to God than we are.

      That all of scripture is given by inspiration of God.  All of scripture was written by men who were fallible, and made mistakes; some of their mistakes are recorded in scripture, but as mistakes.  In this, Paul was no different than Moses or Soloman.  When they were writing scripture, the writers of the Bible (including Paul) were guided by the Holy Ghost so that the did not record any of their erroneous ideas as truth.