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"More Catholic Than the Pope" — New Book Responds to Arguments Raised by Extreme Traditionalists
Envoy Encore Weblog ^ | 07-30-04 | Patrick Madrid

Posted on 07/31/2004 3:18:06 PM PDT by Patrick Madrid

Catholic canon lawyer Peter Vere and I have co-authored a new book critiquing the claims and controversies of extreme traditionalism that will come out in September, published by Our Sunday Visitor Publishing.

Written in a popular and accessible style, More Catholic Than the Pope provides a detailed analysis of and response to common arguments raised by extreme traditionalist Catholics (in particular, adherents of the Society of St. Pius X) against the Second Vatican Council, Pope John Paul II, the fact that the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre committed a schismatic act by illicitly ordaining four bishops in 1988, and more. Chapters include a history of the SSPX, a background on the controversy between the SSPX and the so-called "Conciliar Church," and answers to several standard canon-law and historical arguments often raised by extreme traditionalists.

Our hope is that, by God's grace, the evidence presented in this new 224-page book will inform, encourage, and strengthen Catholics who have been shaken or confused by the misguided arguments raised against the Catholic Church by some extreme traditionalists and, with regard to those who have adopted a schismatic mindset, that this book will help them recognize the errors of extreme traditionalist groups, help them to see why they should abandon those errors, and help them come home to the Catholic Church.

Additional details on More Catholic Than the Pope will be available soon at Envoy Encore weblog.


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; History; Ministry/Outreach; Other Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholicism; christ; church; eucharist; jesus; liturgy; mass; sspx; tradition; traditionalism
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To: pascendi
Others want Church doctrine and proper liturgical expression maintained.

By crying 'apostacy' and 'heresy' and calling into question the "moral behavior of a post-conciliar Pope" plus (for added entertainment value) the always finely worded and carefully phrased hints that the pope is not adhering to Catholic doctrine and proper practice?

As to motives, it's really just that simple.

Oh, so 'your guys' get a free good motives pass but the other guys get a bad motive judgement. Please. Charity in all things.

321 posted on 08/01/2004 9:32:29 PM PDT by american colleen
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To: sockmonkey; sinkspur
I gotta add my $.02 here as well.

Interestingly, the Indult seems to be more widely available in dioceses with "liberal" bishops, such as Los Angeles, Richmond (under Sullivan) and San Antonio.

Here's a list of approved Tridentine Masses in the USA - should put to rest whether or not it 'seems' that the indult is more readily available under liberal bishops... and one should factor in how many Catholics are in those particular dioceses, too.

Bruskewitz, in Lincoln, has a couple of FSSP parishes, but does not allow the Indult.

Bruskewitz has two indult parishes for a diocese of less than 90k Catholics... but the FSSP is quite active there.

322 posted on 08/01/2004 9:32:34 PM PDT by american colleen
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To: Salvation
"Sorry to disappoint you, but the Church is a living instrument -- always changing. In fact, it will be forever changing. We can't go back to that era -- we are living in the year 2004!"

Coming soon, gay bishops, women priests, married priests, onward Christian soldiers!
323 posted on 08/01/2004 9:35:12 PM PDT by Max Combined
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To: Max Combined
They why doesn't Vere come on this thread and deny it?

Some people maybe have other stuff to do and don't regularly search FReeRepublic to make sure their character isn't being publicly slandered (without source, too)?

324 posted on 08/01/2004 9:35:47 PM PDT by american colleen
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To: Max Combined

The Latin Rite of the Catholic Church has married priests. Nearly 200 of them.


325 posted on 08/01/2004 9:37:36 PM PDT by sinkspur (It is time to breed the dangerous Pit Bull Terrier out of existence!)
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To: Max Combined
Coming soon, gay bishops, women priests, married priests, onward Christian soldiers!

KATY BAR THE DOOR! THE GATES HAVE BEEN OVERCOME!

326 posted on 08/01/2004 9:40:04 PM PDT by american colleen
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To: pascendi
Truth is relative, after all, in Salvation's world.
327 posted on 08/01/2004 9:40:10 PM PDT by Max Combined
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To: ultima ratio
The SSPX does not "protest" the Pope or the Magisterium. It protests heterodox papal ACTIONS--which is something else entirely and totally legiitmate.

Unless it's the pope or the magisterium after 1962, that is. Since the magisterium is a living entity and it is entirely composed of ACTIONS - which you say you protest... the ones YOU PERSONALLY INTERPRET as heterodox, of course - hence the title "MORE CATHOLIC THAN THE POPE".

328 posted on 08/01/2004 9:45:05 PM PDT by american colleen
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To: Max Combined; Salvation
It is incredibly rude to talk about someone and not ping them.

You are resorting to personal attacks AND, once again, twisting words in a most uncharitable fashion (when you know perfectly well what she meant) in order to make sport of a daughter of Christ.

Makes me wanna come right over to the local SSPX group and be in the "real Catholic Church" oh yeah.

329 posted on 08/01/2004 9:47:58 PM PDT by american colleen
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To: pascendi
I hope I have never led you to believe that I didn't think the biggest battle was with supernatural forces,because I do think the Evil One is active and prowls around as he waits for oppurtunities which man provides in abundance.

Yes,I read Machiavelli in college,a long,long time ago. More recently,I think I worked for his Prince.

330 posted on 08/01/2004 9:53:22 PM PDT by saradippity
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To: Max Combined
Hey, if a fellow commits murder, and he later repents and confesses, that may make it fine with God, but here on Earth, I am still going to want him get the needle for his evil deed. It is not like all one has to do is confess and then everything is back to square one here on the good earth.

What has this to do with the subject at hand?

331 posted on 08/01/2004 9:55:32 PM PDT by american colleen
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To: american colleen
OK, his co-author, Patrick Madrid, who was not too busy to start this thread has been mum on this subject. Why?
332 posted on 08/01/2004 9:57:56 PM PDT by Max Combined
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To: saradippity
. The poor Pope has to navigate the Barque between their bunker which seems to think ALL God's Truths are already known to them and the swiftly moving conveyor belt the other side has rigged up to catch unwary seekers of Truth,this despite the fact that they doubt the existence of Truth until they experience whatever it is they decide it is. What a mess.

Isn't this scenerio how the gnostic gospels got written? Secret knowledge and all that?

Not to say that I don't respect what and how the SSPX started out and what it did for the traditional Catholics caught in the progressive crossfire, but it seems to me that pride/power is now the sticking point in the reconciliation process - but the SSPX would probably say the same thing. I think they all have as a matter of fact ;-)

333 posted on 08/01/2004 9:58:52 PM PDT by american colleen
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To: american colleen

"KATY BAR THE DOOR! THE GATES HAVE BEEN OVERCOME!"

No use barring the door after the gates have been overcome.


334 posted on 08/01/2004 10:00:02 PM PDT by Max Combined
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To: american colleen

Think about it and it may come to you.


335 posted on 08/01/2004 10:02:13 PM PDT by Max Combined
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To: Max Combined
I guess you have to read post 324 again?

Sometimes I don't check or post for days (lately weeks) - even when I 'hit and run' (post a thread topic) - due to time constraints, obligations outside of FR and then the increasingly vitriolic circular firing squad on the Catholic threads doesn't interest me or help in my relationship with my Savior.

336 posted on 08/01/2004 10:04:02 PM PDT by american colleen
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To: Max Combined
Oh I did...

Preserving the common good of society requires rendering the aggressor unable to inflict harm. For this reason, the traditional teaching of the Church has acknowledged as well-founded the right and duty of legitimate public authority to punish malefactors by means of penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime, not excluding, in cases of extreme gravity, the death penalty.

If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means.
Catechism 2266-67

I don't even want to get into extrapolating the death penalty for a murderer to the death penalty for abortion procurement if that is where you are headed.

337 posted on 08/01/2004 10:07:40 PM PDT by american colleen
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To: Max Combined
No use barring the door after the gates have been overcome.

Asinine.

Goodnight to you - you have my pity and my prayers.

338 posted on 08/01/2004 10:09:19 PM PDT by american colleen
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To: american colleen
"By crying 'apostacy' and 'heresy' and calling into question the "moral behavior of a post-conciliar Pope" plus (for added entertainment value) the always finely worded and carefully phrased hints that the pope is not adhering to Catholic doctrine and proper practice?"

Yeah. Is it untrue?

"Oh, so 'your guys' get a free good motives pass but the other guys get a bad motive judgement. Please. Charity in all things."

This is pretty simple. Try not to complicate it. There's keeping the Deposit of Faith, and then there's straying away from it; that's all I care about.

But most of your rebuff here is just attitude stuff. Charity... sure, everybody whines about that. Real charity has direct linkage with truth. Tell me what I said that's not the truth, and maybe we'll have a basis for a genuine conversation.

There's no my side. I clearly said I would side with whoever sides with doctrine and it's proper liturgical practice. That's not a gumbyphrase that can be stretched into some imaginary whatever; it's pretty clear.
339 posted on 08/01/2004 10:58:49 PM PDT by pascendi (Quicumque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem)
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To: american colleen
"Some people maybe have other stuff to do and don't regularly search FReeRepublic to make sure their character isn't being publicly slandered (without source, too)?"

Like Patrick Madrid, the co-author that started the thread?

You know, the slander thing really is a deviation from the topic here. There really is more substantive stuff to discuss.

For one, why do they feel the need to add fuel to something that's already tearing the Church apart. Or for instance, why Vere and Madrid would write a book they claim is in part about trying to recover supposedly wayward traditional Catholics while using the pot-stirrer title "Holier than the Pope". Come on, give me a break; like that's going to work.

These new theologies and new liturgies and lousy prelates have been ruinous for the Church, and I suppose these two lay-magisterium guys are explain why it really hasn't been ruinous and it's all in our imaginations.

Who knows, maybe eventually the trads can try on a little speaking in tongues. Think it'll work?
340 posted on 08/01/2004 11:15:30 PM PDT by pascendi (Quicumque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem)
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