Posted on 07/31/2004 3:18:06 PM PDT by Patrick Madrid
Catholic canon lawyer Peter Vere and I have co-authored a new book critiquing the claims and controversies of extreme traditionalism that will come out in September, published by Our Sunday Visitor Publishing.
Written in a popular and accessible style, More Catholic Than the Pope provides a detailed analysis of and response to common arguments raised by extreme traditionalist Catholics (in particular, adherents of the Society of St. Pius X) against the Second Vatican Council, Pope John Paul II, the fact that the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre committed a schismatic act by illicitly ordaining four bishops in 1988, and more. Chapters include a history of the SSPX, a background on the controversy between the SSPX and the so-called "Conciliar Church," and answers to several standard canon-law and historical arguments often raised by extreme traditionalists.
Our hope is that, by God's grace, the evidence presented in this new 224-page book will inform, encourage, and strengthen Catholics who have been shaken or confused by the misguided arguments raised against the Catholic Church by some extreme traditionalists and, with regard to those who have adopted a schismatic mindset, that this book will help them recognize the errors of extreme traditionalist groups, help them to see why they should abandon those errors, and help them come home to the Catholic Church.
Additional details on More Catholic Than the Pope will be available soon at Envoy Encore weblog.
We don't "run and hide" by attending SSPX Masses. We are attending valid Masses of the real, not the false, Catholic Church. Our kids are getting catechized with the real, not the false, doctrines of the Catholic Church. It is the Novus Ordo that has been infiltrated by apostates and should be avoided at all costs. It is also the Novus Ordo which protestantizes the faith by suppressing the dogmas of the Real Presence and propitiatory sacrifice--in direct violation of Trent, one of the most important councils of the Catholic Church. It is therefore very harmful and dangerous to Catholics.
I don't think posting it is bad, because the forum, by it's nature, invites contrary opinions. And in this case Patrick Madrid made the post using his own name, so he wasn't trying to hide that fact. I think that's the whole point of the forum.
We just had a post for this book recently: Priest, Where Is Thy Mass? Mass, Where Is Thy Priest
The Smoke of Satan: Conservative and Traditionalist Dissent in Contemporary American Catholicism
Michael W. Cuneo
Again, I think the difficulty posed by splintering within the church is there are many different groups and movements which could be lumped into the "extreme" category. The Spanish authoritarianism and neo-conservatism of Opus Dei, for instance, have come in for some attention by critics. All the different quasi-Marxist and liberal groups on the Left, Liberation Theology circles, have their own extreme styles. This "Paulist Center" that John Kerry attends. Now, supposedly, that is in line with Vatican II and is part of the official church. Go figure.
The so-called "Charismatic" movement which is derived in some way from Protestant Pentecostalist styles of behavior...how is that "Catholic"? There have been a lot of of wild and unusual religious movements since Vatican II which have very eccentric ways of presenting Catholicism.
Vatican II and the various religious movements in relation to it are going to be issues of debate for some time. It's valid to raise the issue.
Your #223. Excellent. Something else that should be factored in are followers of apparitions and/or private revelation, whether approved or not. Whether for good or for ill, they have a huge following and their own unique theological emphases and sometimes generate separateness or exclusivisity.
Likewise, "Extreme Modernists" who manipulate Catholicism in weird liberal ways also add to the divisiveness. I would include the Bernardin-Weakland style of modernism which has been popular among a certain segment in the church in the U.S. John Kerry falls into that category.
Still, I am not drawn to mass conformity like the Islamists or the Orthodox being frozen in time from a cultural standpoint (ancient truths notwithstanding). It appears that mass conformity generates a lot of power, both the earthly variety and the spiritual.
One of the things I like about reading the bible is there was certainly conformity (or unity), but there seems to have been a lot of individual expression within that framework, even for females. They come across as being kind of free spirits in some ways, even though much suffering lay ahead. It may not have really been like that.
As a result, the reception of the council by “liberals” amounted to no more than the commandeering of a few phrases—such as “people of God” and “signs of the times”—out of context. It was time to break the fetters. A loud “Non serviam!” erupted within the Church, along with a surrender to the secular world, which itself was going through a massive identity crisis. These dissidents conjured away the council’s demand for inner reform and apostolic zeal, substituting in its place a generic Christianity that is indistinguishable from bourgeois liberalism’s understanding of the common decencies.
http://www.crisismagazine.com/feature1.htm
After the Council: Living Vatican II
By George Sim Johnston
Yes! If he hasn't repented for his sins, confessed them and received absolution. What hope is there for any of us if this isn't true? You should praise God for his conversion -- or isn't he quite 'converted' enough for you yet?
This is the most frightening and disgusting thread I have ever read on Free Republic. Reminds me of reading one of Dave Hunt's anti-catholic diatribes.
A_R
Thank you for the link. I skimmed over it and will try to pick up on it later. It appears to be more refreshing and upbeat than I had expected.
"Striking my Grandmother is a clear violation of Gods laws, in the Ten Commandments."
So is promoting indifferentism with Assisi-style ecumania.
I mean you have an absurd situation where you have liberal modernists invoking the "Spirit of Vatican II" and almost ultramontane notions of papal power (at the same time! go figure that!) to carry out a Spanish Inquisition-style purge of other Catholics.
Perhaps some of your own typical manner of argument could be used here:
Madrid's a flake and
Vere's kookie
Now, I hope that settles the issue.
Did you know he lives out of an RV?
"Are we to pretend it is virtuous to ignore other people of different faiths?"
There's virtue in converting practitioners of false religions to the One, True Faith - not by supporting them in their errors. When last did you hear the pope (or anyone else at the Vatican) call for the return of the mohammedans or Jews from their grievously errant ways?
"Well I don¡¦t know about suppress. Let us just say we want to give the NOM as much freedom of practice as the Latin Mass has been granted for the last 40 years. Does that strike you as fair? :-)"
That would be fair, but, realistically, I don't think suppression is ever likely to be on the cards. I think the best scenario that could be expected is the application of the wisdom of Gamaliel i.e. both rites are allowed to co-exist unfettered and whichever is more blessed by the Holy Spirit will be the one which prevails in the end.
The only way the N.O. could ever be supplanted completely would be if the Tridentine Rite were celebrated in the vernacular with a dialogue form of the Mass encouraged.
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