"More Catholic Than the Pope" — New Book Responds to Arguments Raised by Extreme Traditionalists

Envoy Encore Weblog ^ | 07-30-04 | Patrick Madrid

[Patrick Madrid]

Catholic canon lawyer Peter Vere and I have co-authored a new book critiquing the claims and controversies of extreme traditionalism that will come out in September, published by Our Sunday Visitor Publishing.

Written in a popular and accessible style, More Catholic Than the Pope provides a detailed analysis of and response to common arguments raised by extreme traditionalist Catholics (in particular, adherents of the Society of St. Pius X) against the Second Vatican Council, Pope John Paul II, the fact that the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre committed a schismatic act by illicitly ordaining four bishops in 1988, and more. Chapters include a history of the SSPX, a background on the controversy between the SSPX and the so-called "Conciliar Church," and answers to several standard canon-law and historical arguments often raised by extreme traditionalists.

Our hope is that, by God's grace, the evidence presented in this new 224-page book will inform, encourage, and strengthen Catholics who have been shaken or confused by the misguided arguments raised against the Catholic Church by some extreme traditionalists and, with regard to those who have adopted a schismatic mindset, that this book will help them recognize the errors of extreme traditionalist groups, help them to see why they should abandon those errors, and help them come home to the Catholic Church.

Additional details on More Catholic Than the Pope will be available soon at Envoy Encore weblog.

[Mark in the Old South]

So please tell me, what do you think of this co-author? Do you approve of abortion his wife had? Do you think his past (the report of his flirtation with Satanism, Lord I hope this is not true) but do you think this is a relevant fact when making a decision to buy the book or not? Is this the best the Roman Catholic Church has to offer, is there no good men to make the case for the RCC against the critics?

[Max Combined]

"I didn't waffle; I stand corrected."

Really?

Which post proves that Peter Vere and his wife did not have an abortion? I missed that one.

Did Patrick Madrid write that or did Peter Vere clear the matter up for us?

[GirlShortstop]

The earth revolves around the sun.

... since I have produced no evidence to back up my assertion, I am a liar and guilty of committing a mortal sin.

You might need your head examined if you think you're Copernicus.
btw, ping a person when you include them in your posting.

[Max Combined]

Birds of a feather…

[Mark in the Old South]

Re: "They want to suppress the Novus Ordo (just read their posts on this forum) and force the Church to disavow Vatican II's Decrees on Ecumenism and Religious Liberty."
There are many in the N.O. clergy - including Cardinals and Archbishops - who want exactly the same. Heck, Archbishop John Foley and Cardinal Pell are even spearheading a counter attack against Gaudium et Spes.¡¨

Well I don¡¦t know about suppress. Let us just say we want to give the NOM as much freedom of practice as the Latin Mass has been granted for the last 40 years. Does that strike you as fair? :-)

The news about the NO clergy including Cardinals and Archbishops is good news. I pray you are right.

[Max Combined]

"His girlfriend had the abortion when the two of them were satanists, not a part of any Church."

That sure looks as if you are making a flat statement. I sure thought you knew what you were talking about.

You did not hedge it by writing that "if his girlfriend had an abortion, perhaps it was when the two of them were satanists" or "I have no idea whatsoever of whether or not his girlfriend has ever had an abortion, but let me try to make up some lame ass excuse for why that might be OK, since I am so wedded to attacking traditional Catholics that I will defend anyone who seems to also be attacking traditional Catholics".

Since we now know that you will make flat statements based on no evidence and will turn 180 degrees when challenged on making these unsubstantiated statements, we will be able to consider any other statements you write in a new light and dismiss them out of hand as being unreliable.

[M007]

What has been the result of the modernization of the Episcopalian/Anglican Church? How far behind the Episcopalians/Anglicans is the Catholic Church?

We all know that the Church is having problems right now but is that any reason to go run and hide in the SSPX? You don't see the homos and liberals running away. They are staying in there, trying to cut up the pie.

The homos and libs will not succeed because the Holy Spirit of God will save The Bride of Christ.

[Max Combined]

"So we have a Catholic Archbishop professing his obedience to Sun Myung Moon, while he is "returning" to Rome."

True, but at least he is not saying the Mass in Latin or giving the host to folks on their tongue while kneeling. That would be truly schismatic!

[Max Combined]

"How Christian of all of you to bring false judgment on someone without evidence."

And you know that this FALSE based on what, pray tell?

Patrick Madrid, calling Patrick Madrid?

[Max Combined]

"Protestant church attendance has ALWAYS averaged about a third of registered members."

Not according to the this:

Forty-six percent of Protestants attend church at least weekly,

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/church_poll020301.html

In any case, the point is that while church attendance at Protestant churches has remained stable, attendance at Mass for Catholics has declined from 75 percent pre-Vatican II to now, when only one-third attend weekly.

All the glad handing, guitar playing, and wine drinking were supposed to increase church attendance and instead have had exactly the opposite results.

"Much of the social history of the Western world,
over the past three decades, has been a history of
replacing what worked with what sounded good."

-- Thomas Sowell

"The most fundamental fact about the ideas of the political left is that they do not work. Therefore we should not be surprised to find the left concentrated in institutions where ideas do not have to work in order to survive." -- Thomas Sowell

[NYer]

St. Teresa of Avila: "I believe that since Satan sees there is no road that leads more quickly to the highest perfection than this of obedience, he suggests many difficulties under the color of some good, and makes it distasteful; let people look well into it and they will see plainly that I am telling the truth. Wherein lies the highest perfection? It is clear that it does not lie in interior delights, not in great raptures, not in visions, not in the spirit of prophecy, but in the conformity of our will to the will of God, so that there shall be nothing we know He wills that we do not will ourselves with our whole will, and accept the bitter as joyfully as the sweet, knowing it to be His Majesty’s will."

What is God’s will? "Whatever you loose on earth, I will loose in Heaven."

[Max Combined]

"Catholic education has been targeted for social engineering in bizarre liberal and modernist ways."

My wife home schooled our daughter using Catholic books with copyright dates in the 1950s. Not only did our daughter do well enough academically to attend Rice University, much more importantly, she is a very sweet, good, and religious young woman.

"By their fruits you shall know them"

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Max Combined]

"But Vatican II did not invent the Catholic faith."

No, it attempted to reinvent the Catholic faith and what were the results of this reinvention? Were they as promised by those who championed these reforms or were the results similar to what those who warned against the reforms thought they would be?

"Much of the social history of the Western world, over the past three decades, has been a history of replacing what worked with what sounded good." -- Thomas Sowell

[Max Combined]

"So Amchurch has now become Protestant?"

Heading in that direction, but not nearly so rigorous and robust as the Southern Baptists who have weekly church attendance of 52 percent.

It is the Ecumenical thing to do.

[Max Combined]

"You don't see the homos and liberals running away"

Birds of a feather...

"Holy Spirit of God will save The Bride of Christ."

The Lord moves in mysterious ways. How do you know that the SSPX is not the means of saving The Bride of Christ?

Keep the faith, baby.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Pyro7480]

I thought solicitation on FR was an offense? I've seen posts and threads pulled for this reason in the past. I think LOTR has a point here.

[sinkspur]

Whatever.

[Land of the Irish]

It is the Ecumenical thing to do.

Yeah, like kissing the Koran or kissing the Archdruid's ring.

[pascendi]

What is God’s will? "Whatever you loose on earth, I will loose in Heaven."

You think this statement of Christ's coupled with a paragraph from St. Teresa of Avila give support for the tolerance of, complicity in, or promotion of whatever flies in the face of the Deposit of Faith?

Because you quote these things which traditional Catholics are already well aware of and have read, it's somehow to be interpreted that caving into modernism, in whatever form or to whatever degree, is God's will?

If so, what's to be said of bailing to another rite to escape it all, then? Same problem, different reaction.

[ultima ratio]

There is such a thing as FALSE obedience. When a superior commands something which would be harmful to souls, his command becomes illegitimate and must be disobeyed. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? You would not obey a pope's command to beat up your grandmother; why then would you obey if he commanded injury to souls? It would be sinful--and cowardly--to obey such a command in the face of the perennial teaching of the Church.