Posted on 07/14/2004 5:09:25 AM PDT by NZerFromHK
Does this category of Christian really exist in significant numbers? From my experience and as I said on a thread a while ago, I know they are the majority group of Asian Christians. I think a lot of Christians among Hispanics, African-Americans, and Americans with Asian background also belong to this group. I'm also astonished to find out that there are plenty of such types in Europe. I was browsing through Rapture Ready's bulletin board just a while ago and I saw threads by a Dutch Christian doubting whether George W. Bush is a Christian because he started the Iraq war blah blah blah, and another British Christian blasting Fox News for its political far-right-wing-ism (relative to British standards). The relevant thread on that board could be read here: (registration required for access unfortunately)
http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=154299&page=1&pp=25
It should be noted that both aren't the Rowan Williams type of liberal "Christians" - they are in fact Left Behind reading, Bible prophecy believing bretherns which would sound far too fringe for a lot of you here. But on politics they actually rant a lot like Barbara Lee.
Any thoughts and feedback to this is welcome.
The Pope?
I know that's not the portrayal of Catholics in the media, but it is my experience.
I consider myself a middle of the road Catholic, but I'm about as coservative politically as a person can get.
Also, I don't believe Ronaldus Magnus could have brought down the evil Soviet empire without the help of JPII.
Just about any Catholic priest qualifies.
"Does this category of Christian really exist in significant numbers?"
Both political and theological liberalism are of and from Satan. This means that they are incompatible with conservatism in any form. It would be impossible to maintain such an imbalance for any protracted period of time.
If a person is in such a condition, it is transient. Either his liberal half is moving toward congruence with his conservative half, or his conservative half is moving toward congruence with his liberal half.
As Charles Caleb Colon said, “He that is good, will infallibly become better, and he that is bad, will as certainly become worse; for vice, virtue and time are three things that never stand still.”
"From my experience and as I said on a thread a while ago, I know they are the majority group of Asian Christians."
I'm sorry, but I'm a little skeptical of that. Perhaps we're not defining "conservative" Christian the same way.
I disagree. Sadly, many priests are theologically liberal. For example, we have a pastor in our diocese who won't let us pass out pro-life voters guides after Masses. He also favors women's ordination (which the pope has spoken ex cathedra against) gun control, group confessions, and lay readership of the Gospel during a Mass.
I've found this priest to be typical - Whenever you crack open a politically liberal priest who won't allow voters guides, there's usually a heretic underneath.
I understand exactly what you're saying.
It's why i left the church in 1970. Just back from the war and I had to listen to a bunch of commies in vestments lecture me about liberation theology.
What they said made sense and so I liberated myself.
I'd invite you to come to a Mass again, except I see you live in Nevada. I spent some time there and had trouble finding a Catholic Church with kneelers.
There are plenty of sons of the devil who categorize the denominational institutions as identical with the Church, then infiltrate those denominations using social tactics, to later propogate human good and evil without any fellowship with God.
They are probably best discerned by understanding spirituality is remaining under the control of the Holy Spirit in one's thinking and then discerning the fruits of those who claim to represent the Church.
I've found many political conservatives have slipped out of fellowship with God, and are scarred by focusing their thinking on human good independent of divine righteousness. A good thing done in a wrong way is still wrong.
I've found those who succomb to Satan's cosmic system mature in unrighteousness beyond mere arrogance and acting independent of God, such as Christian activists and crusaders whom I describe above, and descend lower into what I identify most political liberals of relishing, namely rebellion and attacks upon anything created by God.
Nationality, Family, Marriage, and Volition are all divine institutions. Many conservatives will support those institutions, yet may remain very separate from fellowship with God. They are guilty of moral degeneracy. Many liberals begin and continue to erode those institutions, instead falling into an immoral degeneracy.
I have witnessed many liberals who are immorally degenerate, mature in their degeneracy to the point of becoming artful master liars who gauge their success on how many people they can fool into believing they are sincere, while they intentionally deceive. I have not witnessed many sincere liberals who are in fellowship with God, but who tip their hand of being out of fellowship by many other standards.
For example, any minister who claims to be an official in a church and adamently demands his concurrent 'homosexuality' immediately tips his hand to a lack of fellowship with God.
Thanks for the response. By "theologically conservative but politically liberal" I was thinking more of Jim Wallis or Ron Sider type as American examples - someone who opposes abortion, pornography, gay "marriages", illicit drugs BUT who thinks redistributive taxations, cradle-to-grave welfare state, gun bans, abolition of capital punishment, and spineless pacifism on intl relations are good and mandated by the Bible. Are they real Christians?
I agree that there are also political conservatives who are at worst CINOs but I have seen occasions in the past that people name-call any brothers or sisters in Christ who dared to say Gulf War I was right, welfare reforms should go ahead as "theological liberals/apostates" or "rebelling against God and His Word". It was a confusing world really...
"I was thinking more of Jim Wallis or Ron Sider type"
Never hoiduvvem.
"Are they real Christians?"
I don't think any of us is competent to pronounce on the state of their souls. Best I know, Our Lord doesn't require us to be right about everything.
"as American examples - someone who opposes abortion, pornography, gay "marriages", illicit drugs BUT who thinks redistributive taxations, cradle-to-grave welfare state, gun bans, abolition of capital punishment, and spineless pacifism on intl relations are good and mandated by the Bible."
That is a state of imbalance. It cannot be maintained indefinitely. Satan is in there gnawing, or there would be no acceptance of the cradle-to-grave welfare state, but it's impossible to predict what course such a person's beliefs will take. In some cases, they go all the way over to the left before coming to their senses. Some, of course, never come to their senses, and some fortunate souls are never much deceived by leftism at all.
You just never know how a person will turn out.
"I have seen occasions in the past that people name-call any brothers or sisters in Christ who dared to say Gulf War I was right, welfare reforms should go ahead"
That's the voice of Satan, obviously. To that extent at least they are deceived by him.
I became a Christian while I was still deeply emersed in far left politic and ideas, and I thought that much of what Jesus taught fit right in with a lot of those ideals. In fact, I still do. While my own politics have become more conservative, much of what Jesus talks about, I believe, still doesn't sit too with much of what the Republican party, and conservatives in general, proclaim.
One has to only look at the seperating of the sheeps and goats in Matthew 25 to see that. When Jesus looks to the sheep and says, "I was naked and you clothed me, I was hungry and you fed me, I was in prison and you visited me", these are not describing actions of a political conservative, are they? More like, if a person was naked and hungry, they need to get a job so they can feed and clothe themselves. If a person was in prison, it's their own fault and they need to be responsible for their actions.
One has to merely look at the constant admonistion throughout the Bible, Old Testament and New, about care for the poor and the needy to see that modern conservatism's wholesale abandonment of the poor and the needy is in direct opposition to God's desire to how we treat each other.
I appreciate that this is an unpopular opinion, espically on a board like this. I would just ask, before anyone reacts to my post, just to re-read what Scripture has to say on things like care for the poor and needy, on the accumulation of wealth, on the priority of love, and see what it has to say, then see how that fits into your own political view, rather than taking your policital view and seeing how you can justify it thorough Scripture.
In His service,
pony
Yep. The "Lord come quickly" types are always praying to be relieved of their present sufferings or praying the government relieve them of their burdens.
You are absolutely correct that Scripture commands that we take care of the poor and needy. The question is should that be a government responsibility or individual persons and private organizations? I would contend that when the government is placed with that responsibility it cause two problems, at the minimium. First, individuals are removed from active responsiblity placing them at a distance which leads to unhealthy social and cultural divisions. Second, when the government coerces and steals money from citizens through taxation the citzenry then reacts to that harm by blaming those whom it is supposed to help. This again leads to unhealthy social and cultural divisions within society. When individuals give freely of their own money and time it is always accompanied with a passion for those to whom it is given.
It kills me that the church has abdicated its role of caregiver.
Where I grew up, the main hospital was Queen of the Valley Hospital, a Catholic run hospital that was the best hospital for miles. Who runs hospitals now? How good are the state, or even just plain secular private hospitals, compared to the care historically the Church has given? How much better has the Church historically done with schooling, housing for the elderly or caring for the homeless?
Don't you see, your question, should care for the poor and needy be a government responsibility or individual persons and private organizations, leaves out the most important, and right answer, THE CHURCH! No, care for the poor and needy should never be a governmental responsibility, nor should it be left merely to "individual persons and private organizations", it should be the Church! US! Like it has been for upwards of 2000 years (longer if you take into account Israel's care, though according to the OT, they blew it off a lot as well, lol)
Sorry about the rant it's just that, again, the Church has abdicated one of it's most important roles in society, and left it for mindless petty bureaucrats while Christians relegate themselves to going to conferences, buying the latest Christian Self-Help book and whining about how bad everyone else is.
In His service
pony
Amen Brother! That's not a rant, that's just good ole fashion preaching. Keep up the good work!
Strangely enough, I was just like where you stand now around 10 years ago (as a high school student). At that time I believed the Bible's calls to care for the poor and needy nessiticated a cradle-to-grave welfare state system. That idea was rooted in the days when I was still in Hong Kong where pursuit of economic gains makes the US look like Denmark.
Then I came to New Zealand. I witnessed how the best intention of welfare state provisions make a mockery of individual efforts. Rather than providing a big helping hand to the needy, it has instead become a big brother of the needy. Just like Roger Douglas (the former Labour Finance Minister 1984-1988 - whose reforms were called Rogernomics), I'm one of a numerous number of former socialists. (Roger Douglas was a fully-blown socialist, a card-carrying member of Socialist International) Interestingly most neoliberal policies supporters (in NZ a neoliberal means someone akin to a free market conservative in the US) were used to be hard-core socialists - apart from Roger Douglas, Richard Prebble, Rodney Hide, Ken Shirley, and Don Brash are the other well-known ones. I now understand that true compassion from the satte requires a tough love approach, something that doesn't make my stand popular in Asian Christians circles.
An exerpt of Roger Douglas' speech about welfare reforms is here:
http://www.rogerdouglas.org.nz/conf04a.htm
post 18. :-)
Actually, as a Christian, my thoughts about the care for the poor and needy have never really included a cradle-to-grave welfare state. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I've always understood that care should come from the Church, not the state.
What bothers me is the idea of "tough-love" approach from the state (which I agree with) being used to justify the inaction of The Church (which I don't agree with). Believe me, as an expat living in England, I see daily the downside to modern socialism from a political standpoint. However, this cannot be used as blanket reasoning for the abondonment of the poor and needy by the Church.
Honestly, how much of capitalism's overriding priority to accumulate wealth would Jesus have honestly condoned? Which doesn't automatically mean that Jesus would have immedately embraced communism or socailsism either! Doesn't Scripture say if a man not work, then let him not eat? Nowhere in the Bible is laziness and sloth encouraged, however nowhere is financial profit and the accumulation of wealth held up as man's highest goal.
Unfortunalty, what happens is that whenever a Christian calls out for action for the poor, or for social justice, or expresses concern for *gasp* the environment, suddenly they get labled this flaming liberal who is obviously deceived by Satan needs to be delivered from the evil spirits of communism/socialism/whateverism. I am extremely concerned about many conservative Christian's religious views being conformed by their political views, rather than the other way around.
Anyway, those are my thoughts, fire at will
pony
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