Shroud of Turin description in Sermon from 944AD Constantinople!

www.Shroud.com ^ | August 15, 944 AD - Translated January 2004 | Mark Guscin - Gregory Referendarius, Archdeacon of Hagia Sophia

[Antoninus]

Another example of "charity" from the Western Church. It s really sad. That one act probably sealed the Schism permanently!

Please. That act was neither advocated nor endorsed by the Pope. He had no hand in it at all. It happened for the same reasons that many catastrophes happened in Byzantium--because religion and politics were ridiculously bound together by the doctrine of caesaropapism.

Look, we all agree it was a despicable act. However, in hindsight, the Byzantine Empire was tottering and under increasing pressure from the Turks and it's likely that ALL relics of Byzantine art and civilization might have been lost had not the Crusaders "liberated" a portion of it. I might also point out, that the "Western Church" displayed its charity quite clearly by furnishing the bulk of those soldiers who defended Constantinople during its final passion in 1453. The sacrifice of those men helped blot out the disgrace earned 250 years before.

If you're still holding a grudge after 800 years, I can't help you. Forgive and forget.

[Antoninus]

The Orthodox were allowed to keep their faith, and there was very little destruction of churches, etc. The Crusaders were much worse.

You're kidding, right? Exactly how many Christians are left in Istanbul today? Asia minor? Have you ever heard of the Church of the Holy Apostles? Is Hagia Sophia sitll a functioning Church today? Do you know what a Janissary was?

[TexConfederate1861]

I am aware of what happened to both of those churches, and NO, I am not saying the Turks were angels, but at LEAST they didn't slaughter Christians in the name of Christ, and by-in-large the Christians were allowed to be ruled by the Greek Patriarchate. (Which is STILL in Instanbul, and has a large Orthodox Population to this very day!)

[TexConfederate1861]

I agree that the Pope of Rome had very little if any to do with it. The Venetians were the main culprit if I recall. However the West sent VERY FEW troops to assist the Eastern Empire against the Turks, which is a main reason it fell. Now, no grudge on my part, but I don't sugar-coat the truth. And, if indeed the West repents it's past, then why not return the artifacts stolen from the Orthodox BACK to the Orthodox?

Not Likely Friend!

[Swordmaker]

And, if indeed the West repents it's past, then why not return the artifacts stolen from the Orthodox BACK to the Orthodox? Not Likely Friend!

Possession is nine tenths of the Law... Church Law...

[TexConfederate1861]

I believe the scripture says "thou shalt not steal" and I don't recall that it gives the Roman Church an exemption.

A thief is a thief....and the Crusaders were thieves. Wearing a cross or all the Holy Water in St. Peter's won't make it right.

[SunkenCiv]

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	Gods Graves Glyphs	Note: this topic is from August 15, 944 AD, er, I mean, January 21, 2004. Thanks Swordmaker. Blast from the Past. Just adding to the catalog, not sending a general distribution. To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach
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[Flag_This]

"However the West sent VERY FEW troops to assist the Eastern Empire against the Turks, which is a main reason it fell."

The Crusades were initiated when the Eastern Empire begged the West for help. Relations between the two sides went south almost from the beginning at the siege of Antioch in 1098.

I would argue that the Crusades helped give the Eastern Empire an extra few hundred years of existence it wouldn't otherwise have had against the Turks.