Again, Jews Fault Mormons Over Posthumous Baptisms

NY Times ^ | December 21, 2003 | IAN URBINA

[Pharmboy]

Jewish group says it is considering legal action in an effort to stop the Mormon Church from posthumously baptizing many Jews, especially Holocaust victims.

Under the practice, known by Mormons as vicarious baptism — a significant rite of the church — the dead are baptized by living church members who stand in as proxies.

But in 1995, after evidence emerged that at least 380,000 names of Jewish Holocaust victims were on baptismal lists in the church's extensive archives in Salt Lake City, the church agreed to end vicarious baptism without consent from the descendants of the dead. Church officials also said the church would remove the names of Holocaust victims placed on the lists before 1995.

"For the last seven years, we've had entirely cordial relations with the Mormons," said Ernest Michel, who negotiated the agreement on behalf of the American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, which is based in New York and claims 180,000 members. "But the agreement is clear and they have not held up their end."

Last year, Helen Radkey, an independent researcher in Salt Lake City, gave Mr. Michel evidence that the Mormon lists still included the names of at least 20,000 Jews, many of them Holocaust victims and prominent figures like the philosopher Theodor Herzl and David Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel. Ms. Radkey also provided Mr. Michel with evidence that many of these Jews had been baptized after the 1995 agreement.

But Mormon officials say they remain in full compliance with the 1995 agreement.

"We have actually gone above and beyond," said D. Todd Christofferson, a church official involved with the negotiations. The church removed the names of Holocaust victims listed before 1995 and continues to instruct its members to avoid baptizing Jews who are not directly related to living Mormons or whose immediate family has not given written consent, Mr. Christofferson said.

But he said it was not the church's responsibility to monitor the archives to ensure that no new Jewish names appear. "We never had in mind that we would, on a continual basis, go in and ferret out the Jewish names," Mr. Christofferson said, adding that the labor involved in constantly sifting through an ever-expanding archive, which contains more than 400 million names, would represent an "intolerable burden."

"When the church is made aware of documented concerns, action is taken in compliance with the agreement," he said.

Some Jewish genealogists agree with the Mormon interpretation of the agreement. "I have a copy of the agreement," said Gary Mokotoff, the publisher of Avotaynu, the International Review of Jewish Genealogy. "The wording is vague in some places, but it definitely does not obligate the Mormons to scour their own archives on an ongoing basis."

But Mr. Michel, who said he became involved in the issue after reading about posthumous baptisms in the Jewish newspaper The Forward, contends that the agreement obliges the Mormon Church to monitor the post-1995 lists and remove the names of Jews that appear.

"They put the names in there, they should have to take them out, and the agreement says as much," he said. "Why should we have to do their job for them?" He said the group was considering legal action but would not provide details.

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, whom Mr. Michel contacted, said she planned to take up the matter with Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah, a Republican and a Mormon. "Senator Hatch was immensely helpful in brokering the 1995 agreement, so we're hoping he can get involved again now," she said in a telephone interview.

With approximately 11 million members worldwide, the Mormon Church, known formally as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is one of the fastest-growing in the world, partly because of a strong missionary effort. The importance of the family structure is central to church doctrine and is a reason for the extensive archives kept by the International Genealogical Index in Salt Lake City. The archives include detailed biographical information of 400 million people going back centuries. The names of those to be posthumously baptized are drawn from the archives.

According to Mormon theology, all people, living or dead, possess "free agency," and posthumous baptisms provide only an option, not an obligation, to join the religion in the afterlife. Church membership numbers do not include those baptized after death, Mr. Christofferson said.

Originally, the practice was reserved for ancestors of church members, but over the years many other people have been baptized posthumously. "There is no way to prevent overzealous members doing mission work from submitting names that don't belong," Mr. Christofferson said.

Ms. Radkey, an Australian-born Christian, said she began researching the Mormon practice in 1999 after discovering that the teenage diarist Anne Frank had been posthumously baptized.

[CCWoody]

***Spirit are not created!

I formed thee in the belly as in Job!

I am in hurry so it is formed or organized.***

Gee, I though that HF already had them by the bunches in heaven and just put them in the belly. I didn't know that He had to personally go down and "form" each one of them. Does the HS stand "guard" over that too?

Woody.

[TechWriterMX-5]

Incompatible with what? Incompatible with Christianity? As defined by who? You? Your priest, pastor, or bishop? By the Roman emperor who instructed the competing Christian faiths to get their act together?

Look, I know this line of reasoning sounds like post-modernist realativism to you but it isn't. I'm just trying to explain to you why I don't believe bible bashing convinces anyone. In the end it comes down to translations and ancient documents and who was arrested for what and when and why. There are snide remarks about printing presses being destroyed and polygamy. There are vile insinuations about things one side holds dear. None of it is productive.

But like I said I'm happy to try to answer your questions. I think I detected a question about where Mormons get the idea that there were lost manuscripts. Well, and again I'm not an authority and I don't speak for the church, but are you suggesting that everything that was written by the holy men in biblical times made it into what we today call the "bible?" Is everything there? Every last word? I havn't prayed about it, but I find that harder to believe than the possibilty that some past authority decided to leave out books that didn't "contribute" to the accepted beliefs of the day. I'm not suggesting the ommision was done out of evil designs. I'm just saying it's possible.

But the real crux of it isn't whether there are passages or manuscripts missing. The crux of it is whether you think God can reveal his will to man, or in this case a boy named Joseph Smith, as recently as 1830. If you don't believe that, then it doesn't matter what you believe about what is in the bible. If you don't believe in revelation, then you can't believe in Joseph, and the rest of the discussion is pointless.

[Wrigley]

Its so much easier to do that than to think. Its a shame really.

[scripter]

Thank you. After reading your post I searched and found this.

From lds.org they state the Holy Spirit: "can be in only one place at a time, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time."

They don't source it but it's at their website.

[ladyinred]

Very nice post. Thanks for showing that a discussion can be held without personal insults and flaming.

[CCWoody]

***From lds.org they state the Holy Spirit: "can be in only one place at a time, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time."***

So much for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. At least that explains why Restornu claimed to have only had a few visitations by the HS. It is amazing that they think their faith is better. They only get to enjoy the company of the Holy Spirit briefly. And, even if we grant that, it is so much inferior to what we have.

Perhaps they should yank a few of those pesky scripture verses out of the Bible since they clearly stand contrary to that teaching.

Woody.

[scripter]

It's only pointless if you want to limit the discussion. I think it's incredible that someone wants to believe something was deleted without any evidence it existed in the first place. Stop and think about it - with that line of thinking you could fall for anything.

[Alex Murphy]

BTW the Holy Ghost has come upon me many times and I never got pregnate!

Have you prayed about the possibility that maybe he wore a condom?

[TechWriterMX-5]

"So much for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. "

You should read this additional information about what Mormons call the Gift of the Holy Ghost before you comment further. It is my understanding that Mormons believe the Holy Ghost can be a constant companion through this gift, which is given after baptism.

This is not to say that the holy ghost can't manifest himself to those who are not baptized. There is a difference between manefestations of the Spirit and the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-29,00.html

[scripter]

Thanks. I'm trying but it gets so difficult at times. As I see it, this really is a spiritual battle and must be fought at that level.

[RnMomof7]

LOL

[TechWriterMX-5]

So to prove to you somthing is invisible I have to show it to you? Or in this case to prove to you that something is missing I have to show it to you?

I'll try.

Does this help?

http://scriptures.lds.org/bdl/lstbks

[A.J.Armitage]

Let's get specific. The press was destroyed because the publishers were calling for the death of Joseph Smith and other church leaders.

Here it is. Find the call for Smith's death.

[scripter]

That's just misdirection. Since somebody noticed I was trying to have a regular discussion I'll stop there. I hope you'll further ponder what's been said.

[RnMomof7]

The books that are not canonical are not inspired .

The Holy Spirit inspired selective use of the inspired part of the texts.

We have a God that is fully able to preserve His word and not lose it .

[CCWoody]

Have you prayed about the possibility that maybe he wore a condom? ~ Alex Murphy

BWAHAHAHAHA!

Woody.

[Wrigley]

Well, condoms aren't 100% effective, maybe the spirtual pill was used as well?

[CCWoody]

***It is my understanding that Mormons believe the Holy Ghost can be a constant companion through this gift, which is given after baptism.***

So, my statement still stands:....

"So much for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. "

You guys can keep your religion. I've something much better than this sad thing you offer.

Woody.

[TechWriterMX-5]

Misdirection? You asked about missing sripture and I pointed you to a link that explains where the Mormons get the idea of missing scripture. I don't know how I could have been more plain than that. If you aren't willing to debate what is on that page then you aren't willing to "take it to the next level" as you said.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to call it like I see it. You don't appear to have any interest in "discovering" the truth. If you did you would have responded in any other way than you did.

As I said before, these threads never lead to anyone changing his or her mind because no one who participates in these threads is interested in truth. I'll be honest, you're not going to change what I know to be true through personal prayer. If you won't accept a Book of Mormon,read it, and pray about it, then you could at least accept my offer to meet you half way and answer your intellectual questions about my church. When you dismiss my honest answer and call it misdirection, you reveal the true nature of your position. You are as convinced as I am of your position. Can we agree now this is pointless, and it isn't all because of me?

I won't be posting or checking this thread anymore. I'll just leave this last link. Any questions you have about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (the Mormons) can be answered at this search page. Everything is there. You can search the scriptures we use, our teaching manuals, and decades of speeches by church authorities. I don't know how the church could make it easier than that.

http://www.lds.org/search/0,5523,165,00.html

[Wrigley]

You can search the scriptures we use, our teaching manuals, and decades of speeches by church authorities. I don't know how the church could make it easier than that.

But of course when those things are used, the typical mormon response is that its all taken out of context....