Again, Jews Fault Mormons Over Posthumous Baptisms

NY Times ^ | December 21, 2003 | IAN URBINA

[Pharmboy]

Jewish group says it is considering legal action in an effort to stop the Mormon Church from posthumously baptizing many Jews, especially Holocaust victims.

Under the practice, known by Mormons as vicarious baptism — a significant rite of the church — the dead are baptized by living church members who stand in as proxies.

But in 1995, after evidence emerged that at least 380,000 names of Jewish Holocaust victims were on baptismal lists in the church's extensive archives in Salt Lake City, the church agreed to end vicarious baptism without consent from the descendants of the dead. Church officials also said the church would remove the names of Holocaust victims placed on the lists before 1995.

"For the last seven years, we've had entirely cordial relations with the Mormons," said Ernest Michel, who negotiated the agreement on behalf of the American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, which is based in New York and claims 180,000 members. "But the agreement is clear and they have not held up their end."

Last year, Helen Radkey, an independent researcher in Salt Lake City, gave Mr. Michel evidence that the Mormon lists still included the names of at least 20,000 Jews, many of them Holocaust victims and prominent figures like the philosopher Theodor Herzl and David Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel. Ms. Radkey also provided Mr. Michel with evidence that many of these Jews had been baptized after the 1995 agreement.

But Mormon officials say they remain in full compliance with the 1995 agreement.

"We have actually gone above and beyond," said D. Todd Christofferson, a church official involved with the negotiations. The church removed the names of Holocaust victims listed before 1995 and continues to instruct its members to avoid baptizing Jews who are not directly related to living Mormons or whose immediate family has not given written consent, Mr. Christofferson said.

But he said it was not the church's responsibility to monitor the archives to ensure that no new Jewish names appear. "We never had in mind that we would, on a continual basis, go in and ferret out the Jewish names," Mr. Christofferson said, adding that the labor involved in constantly sifting through an ever-expanding archive, which contains more than 400 million names, would represent an "intolerable burden."

"When the church is made aware of documented concerns, action is taken in compliance with the agreement," he said.

Some Jewish genealogists agree with the Mormon interpretation of the agreement. "I have a copy of the agreement," said Gary Mokotoff, the publisher of Avotaynu, the International Review of Jewish Genealogy. "The wording is vague in some places, but it definitely does not obligate the Mormons to scour their own archives on an ongoing basis."

But Mr. Michel, who said he became involved in the issue after reading about posthumous baptisms in the Jewish newspaper The Forward, contends that the agreement obliges the Mormon Church to monitor the post-1995 lists and remove the names of Jews that appear.

"They put the names in there, they should have to take them out, and the agreement says as much," he said. "Why should we have to do their job for them?" He said the group was considering legal action but would not provide details.

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, whom Mr. Michel contacted, said she planned to take up the matter with Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah, a Republican and a Mormon. "Senator Hatch was immensely helpful in brokering the 1995 agreement, so we're hoping he can get involved again now," she said in a telephone interview.

With approximately 11 million members worldwide, the Mormon Church, known formally as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is one of the fastest-growing in the world, partly because of a strong missionary effort. The importance of the family structure is central to church doctrine and is a reason for the extensive archives kept by the International Genealogical Index in Salt Lake City. The archives include detailed biographical information of 400 million people going back centuries. The names of those to be posthumously baptized are drawn from the archives.

According to Mormon theology, all people, living or dead, possess "free agency," and posthumous baptisms provide only an option, not an obligation, to join the religion in the afterlife. Church membership numbers do not include those baptized after death, Mr. Christofferson said.

Originally, the practice was reserved for ancestors of church members, but over the years many other people have been baptized posthumously. "There is no way to prevent overzealous members doing mission work from submitting names that don't belong," Mr. Christofferson said.

Ms. Radkey, an Australian-born Christian, said she began researching the Mormon practice in 1999 after discovering that the teenage diarist Anne Frank had been posthumously baptized.

[restornu]

ROTFLMHO!

BBL!

[Elsie]

Pray for a LOVE BOMB.

There has to be SOMETHING to replace the entire lifestyle if the TRUTH is finally realized.........

[scripter]

Thanks for the clarification.

I just hate to see people who should be one another's allies

Did you read my post 558 in this thread? Your above sentence continued with:

that is people who believe in the God of the Old Testament

I'll get back to that in a second... later in your post you said:

it doesn't make much sense to argue the finer points,

Yet that's the issue when we get to the finer points. Christians believe the God of the Old Testament to be the same God of the New Testament. Not some god who himself has a heavenly father - that's a totally different God.

When the finer points are hashed out we see the major differences. Unfortunately getting to the finer points is difficult through all the misdirection and misrepresentation.

[drstevej]

I like chocolate....

[abu afak]

""""No need for killing or smashing printing presses now.......

'Someone' will just have an offending reply pulled: no problem........""""

Tell it to Salman Rushdie..

or the many who've died for 'Blaspheming the Prophet', which is still illegal to this day in Many/MOST Islamic countries.

[TechWriterMX-5]

Teach, yes. Mob, no.

I've read through this thread and any Mormon "teaching" that you may have felt a need to "contend" with began only AFTER others spoke falsly about what the Mormons believe. In that case it is appropriate for ACTUAL MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH to speak up and try to clarify what is being misunderstood.

For example, it was said that Mormons were trying to add to their "rosters," which is false.

It was also suggested that Mormons were "targeting Jews," which is false.

But as with all of these threads there are those who are not content to simply state an opinion and allow it to be countered. They feel they must do the online equivalent of shouting the disagreeing party down. I've sure you've seen this kind of person on shows like Jerry Springer or Sally Jesse Whatsherface. And so the shouting begins and the person who writes the last post, the online equivalent of the "Yo Mamma" statement, goes to bed that night feeling like they won. Of course they check the thread the next day to make sure no one logged on and posted a rebuttal. Can't let that happen without a response. In which case the "contender" mumurs something like, "Oh no you di-int" and starts hammering away at the keyboard anew.

[CCWoody]

***1-And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee,

The 3rd member of the Godhead who is the witness to the truth of all things!

2- and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:

Higest is the 1st member of the Godhead which nothing can be created or done without!

3- therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God

Son of God is the 2nd member of the Godhead

During the time of conception the Holy Spirit stood guard so no corruption could manifested!***

1. I can't believe that you actually deny that the Holy Spirit is the power of the Highest. That is actually a kind of BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT!

2. You now, in addition to your last post of turning the HS into an incubus, are making the HS into some kind of voyeuristic freak.

Woody.

[scripter]

So you don't have a source for this statement?

During the time of conception the Holy Spirit stood guard so no corruption could manifested!

Or is that your own interpretation?

[CCWoody]

***ROTFLMHO!***

Well, frankly I'm shocked you think it is amusing. To actually claim as proof that the Holy Spirit is not the Power of the Highest and therefore not the one who caused Mary to become pregant the fact that you have been "overcome" and not become pregant is at the same time pathetically sad and outrageously sobering.

It like you don't even blink an eye that this is a kind of BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT!

Woody.

[restornu]

Sadly woody your the one who is hopless!

When I pray to the Heavenly Father I also invite the Holy Spirit to protect my conversation I have with the Father in the name of Jesus Christ!

You have a way of taking things out of contexts!

[scripter]

It appears some folks haven't really thought about this themselves and just post what they're fed.

[TechWriterMX-5]

"Yet that's the issue when we get to the finer points. Christians believe the God of the Old Testament to be the same God of the New Testament. Not some god who himself has a heavenly father - that's a totally different God."
__________________
I'm a Mormon (duh) and I'd be happy to answer any question you have as directly as I can, but like most practicers of a faith I am not an "authority." There are things I take on faith.

But let me ask you this. If I say the Mormons believe this, and you say but MY bible says that, then where does that get us? That was my point about prayer. In the end each of us must be prepared to live according to our faith and pray to know what is right. We can each believe that the other isn't praying "the right way," but in the end we have to move on and accept the real possibility that the difference of opinion can't be resolved. The question is, do we then make our minds to HATE the other person? I hope neither of our religions teaches that.

[RnMomof7]

LUKE 1 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

1-And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee,

You are denying that it was the Holy Spirit that came "upon" Mary?

2- and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:

This is where the LDS doctrine falls apart.

Higest is the 1st member of the Godhead which nothing can be created or done without!

Your doctrine says you god did not create ANYTHING .He simply organized the space garbage , man is nothing more that an eternal intelligence ..not a created being ..so he did not create on that night .

3- therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God

Was he not already called the son of god? Why the future tense??

During the time of conception the Holy Spirit stood guard so no corruption could manifested!

Wow was he watching at the door while the father had mary had sex so not one would interrupt their wedding night ? Who could "corrupt" the work of God??

[RnMomof7]

When I pray to the Heavenly Father I also invite the Holy Spirit to protect my conversation I have with the Father in the name of Jesus Christ!

Your church says he can only be at one place at a time..what makes you think he is listening to you Rest?

[CCWoody]

***When I pray to the Heavenly Father I also invite the Holy Spirit to protect my conversation I have with the Father in the name of Jesus Christ!***

Well, this is just so sad. First you have the Holy Spirit standing guard outside the Motel 6 while the deed with Mary gets done. Do you suppose that the Holy Spirit is protecting the newlyweds from Heavenly mum interrupting?

Now, you hve the Holy Spirit protecting your conversation with Him. From whom exactly does the Heavenly Father need to have your conversation protected? Junior II?

That's quite a Soap Opera you got going!

Woody.

[CCWoody]

***It appears some folks haven't really thought about this themselves and just post what they're fed.***

I think that not a single soul after thoughtful introspection would actually make that argument.

Woody.

[scripter]

But let me ask you this. If I say the Mormons believe this, and you say but MY bible says that, then where does that get us?

We take it to the next level. When we get down to the details, Mormonism teaches the original manuscripts were lost and were in need of restoration. From where does this belief come? Mormons have no physical evidence to support their claim that biblical text was deleted, and in Mormons restoring the text we find text incompatible with Christianity. As you said, there is only one source of truth.

[restornu]

going out soon!

Spirit are not created!

I formed thee in the belly as in Job!

I am in hurry so it is formed or organized.

During the time of conception the Holy Spirit stood guard so no corruption could manifested!

Wow was he watching at the door while the father had mary had sex so not one would interrupt their wedding night ? Who could "corrupt" the work of God??

Being peeping tom is your words not mine!

man is nothing more that an eternal intelligence

don't confuse motral man with spirit which is the eternal intelligents the game plan is to recived an immortal (eternal) body for the eternal spirit!

BBL

[scripter]

[Mormonism] says he can only be at one place at a time..what makes you think he is listening to you Rest?

I don't remember reading about that one. Do you have a source for my archives?

[RnMomof7]

Who Is the Holy Ghost?

The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a spirit that has the form and likeness of a man (see D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at a time, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time.