Again, Jews Fault Mormons Over Posthumous Baptisms

NY Times ^ | December 21, 2003 | IAN URBINA

[Pharmboy]

Jewish group says it is considering legal action in an effort to stop the Mormon Church from posthumously baptizing many Jews, especially Holocaust victims.

Under the practice, known by Mormons as vicarious baptism — a significant rite of the church — the dead are baptized by living church members who stand in as proxies.

But in 1995, after evidence emerged that at least 380,000 names of Jewish Holocaust victims were on baptismal lists in the church's extensive archives in Salt Lake City, the church agreed to end vicarious baptism without consent from the descendants of the dead. Church officials also said the church would remove the names of Holocaust victims placed on the lists before 1995.

"For the last seven years, we've had entirely cordial relations with the Mormons," said Ernest Michel, who negotiated the agreement on behalf of the American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, which is based in New York and claims 180,000 members. "But the agreement is clear and they have not held up their end."

Last year, Helen Radkey, an independent researcher in Salt Lake City, gave Mr. Michel evidence that the Mormon lists still included the names of at least 20,000 Jews, many of them Holocaust victims and prominent figures like the philosopher Theodor Herzl and David Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel. Ms. Radkey also provided Mr. Michel with evidence that many of these Jews had been baptized after the 1995 agreement.

But Mormon officials say they remain in full compliance with the 1995 agreement.

"We have actually gone above and beyond," said D. Todd Christofferson, a church official involved with the negotiations. The church removed the names of Holocaust victims listed before 1995 and continues to instruct its members to avoid baptizing Jews who are not directly related to living Mormons or whose immediate family has not given written consent, Mr. Christofferson said.

But he said it was not the church's responsibility to monitor the archives to ensure that no new Jewish names appear. "We never had in mind that we would, on a continual basis, go in and ferret out the Jewish names," Mr. Christofferson said, adding that the labor involved in constantly sifting through an ever-expanding archive, which contains more than 400 million names, would represent an "intolerable burden."

"When the church is made aware of documented concerns, action is taken in compliance with the agreement," he said.

Some Jewish genealogists agree with the Mormon interpretation of the agreement. "I have a copy of the agreement," said Gary Mokotoff, the publisher of Avotaynu, the International Review of Jewish Genealogy. "The wording is vague in some places, but it definitely does not obligate the Mormons to scour their own archives on an ongoing basis."

But Mr. Michel, who said he became involved in the issue after reading about posthumous baptisms in the Jewish newspaper The Forward, contends that the agreement obliges the Mormon Church to monitor the post-1995 lists and remove the names of Jews that appear.

"They put the names in there, they should have to take them out, and the agreement says as much," he said. "Why should we have to do their job for them?" He said the group was considering legal action but would not provide details.

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, whom Mr. Michel contacted, said she planned to take up the matter with Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah, a Republican and a Mormon. "Senator Hatch was immensely helpful in brokering the 1995 agreement, so we're hoping he can get involved again now," she said in a telephone interview.

With approximately 11 million members worldwide, the Mormon Church, known formally as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is one of the fastest-growing in the world, partly because of a strong missionary effort. The importance of the family structure is central to church doctrine and is a reason for the extensive archives kept by the International Genealogical Index in Salt Lake City. The archives include detailed biographical information of 400 million people going back centuries. The names of those to be posthumously baptized are drawn from the archives.

According to Mormon theology, all people, living or dead, possess "free agency," and posthumous baptisms provide only an option, not an obligation, to join the religion in the afterlife. Church membership numbers do not include those baptized after death, Mr. Christofferson said.

Originally, the practice was reserved for ancestors of church members, but over the years many other people have been baptized posthumously. "There is no way to prevent overzealous members doing mission work from submitting names that don't belong," Mr. Christofferson said.

Ms. Radkey, an Australian-born Christian, said she began researching the Mormon practice in 1999 after discovering that the teenage diarist Anne Frank had been posthumously baptized.

[scripter]

I know, I know. Sometimes I just have to try.

[TechWriterMX-5]

scripter wrote: "I'm reminded of something recently posted here:

The after-effect of 9-11 has been a general decline in the credibility of what's called "post-modernism," the belief there..."

I'm not sure I understand your point. Before I respond could you be clearer? Are you suggesting that what I wrote IS or IS NOT and example of post-modern thinking?

[Elsie]

Bad math: only thirty-two


0 1 2 3 4 5 6
0 1 2 4 8 16 32

[scripter]

What does "By the power of God!" mean to you?

C'mon, don't try to pull anything out of context. What is the power of God doing here? The power of God will overshadow you - what does that mean? In the context, please. What is the conversation about?

BTW the Holy Ghost has come upon me many times and I never got pregnate!

Imagine that. Same here so it must mean something specific. Context, my friend, context.

[drstevej]

I'm sure Steven will be greatly relieved.

[Elsie]

The mantra appears to be:

If it DOESN'T agree with LDS dogma -- it is biased against us...
If it DOESN'T agree with LDS dogma -- it is an OPINION...
If it DOESN'T agree with LDS dogma -- it is bashing...
If it DOESN'T agree with LDS dogma -- you hate us unreasonably...

(Did I leave any out?)

[scripter]

Maybe you're concentrating on the wrong point... With this:

The only way for a faithful person to come to know truth is to exercise faith in his or her source of truth.

It appears you're stating there's more than one source of truth. Are you saying there is more than one source of truth? If not, then it sounds like you're saying something else. If so, were the 911 terrorists right in their murdering quest?

[TechWriterMX-5]

You left out:

If it DOESN'T agree with LDS dogma, and you're the one saying it -- then don't worry. The Mormons will give you an opportunity (through proxy baptism) to accept the truth after you're dead. If you're still stubborn you'll have the pleasure of telling the Mormons they're wrong twice.

Horrible, aren't they? Wouldn't the world be better off if they just went away or kept to themselves? Come on. That's what you REALLY think, isn't it? It's okay. We're all friends here. Go ahead. Say what you really want to happen.

[restornu]

CONTEXT

LUKE 1
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

1-And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee,

The 3rd member of the Godhead who is the witness to the truth of all things!

2- and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:

Higest is the 1st member of the Godhead which nothing can be created or done without!

3- therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God

Son of God is the 2nd member of the Godhead

During the time of conception the Holy Spirit stood guard so no corruption could manifested!

[abu afak]

"""So....

It started real early: is THAT what you are saying?""""


Yes Elsie:


Abu Afak was Mohammed's first victim... at least the first named victim, a 120 Year old Jew who criticised his 'teachings'.

He had done alot of damage Prior to directing that specific Murder however.

After 'abu' he had the woman Killed who complained about it. (!)

[scripter]

During the time of conception the Holy Spirit stood guard so no corruption could manifested!

From where does that come?

[TechWriterMX-5]

"It appears you're stating there's more than one source of truth."

No. I'm not implying that at all. I'm sorry if that's how it sounded. I believe with all my heart that there is but one source of truth, and that if everyone prayed honestly and with a desire to ACT upon the answer they receive, they'd get the same answer to the same question of faith, Jew or Gentile.

I don't believe in relative morality. But the problem here is what to do when two people honestly believe they've been told that different churches have the "truth." Here in the west we have evolved past the point where we shed blood over such disagreements (for the most part).

I just hate to see people who should be one another's allies, that is people who believe in the God of the Old Testament, bickering among themselves over these petty issues when people of faith should KNOW that is is only through one's relationship to the Almighty that real Truth can be known.

Unless one is willing to take it to the next level and tell everyone on this list that one's religion is the true religion and everyone else is damned, it doesn't make much sense to argue the finer points, does it?

That is, unless you believe it is possible to get it "mostly right" in this life and get the rest in the afterlife, and the more you get right in this life the easier it is in the afterlife. But then that's a discredited Mormon belief, isn't it?

[Elsie]

So, are you saying that we should NOT follow what has so clearly been written to us?

 

That we should NOT contend for the faith as it has been delivered to us?

 

That we should NOT try to correct error when we find it?

 

---

Matthew 28:19-20
 19.  Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in  the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
 20.  and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

 

 

 

2 Thessalonians 2:15
 15.  So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

 

 

1 Timothy 1:3-4
 3.  As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
 4.  nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.

 

 

1 Timothy 4:6
   If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

 

 

1 Timothy 6:3-5
 3.  If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
 4.  he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 
 5.  and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

 

 

2 Timothy 1:13
   What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.

 

 

2 Timothy 3:16-17
 16.  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
 17.  so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

 

Titus 2:1
   You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.

 

Titus 2:15
   These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

 

 

Jude 1:3
   Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. (<-- not the LDS organization!)

 

 

1 Peter 4:11
   If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.

---

I think I'll CONTINUE to post the word of GOD, in a modern translation that is understandable. 

 

 

If you do not like Shakespeare's plays, ask yourself why.  The LANGUAGE perhaps?

[Elsie]

TARBABY Alert!

---

Hey!

I just got here and 611 is GONE!!!

Someone sure complained quickly ---------- HMmmm... I wonder who would do that?????

[Elsie]

No need for killing or smashing printing presses now.......

'Someone' will just have an offending reply pulled: no problem........

[restornu]

The Holy Spirit is the witness of all truth and it said will come upon so only that which is good could take place.

So the Holy Spirit is also the guardian who watches over or the protector of truth!

[Elsie]

HMMmm..... will this thread be around long enough for me to grab the coveted 666 number again? After all, it DID get bumped to Religion...

[CCWoody]

***BTW the Holy Ghost has come upon me many times and I never got pregnate!***

What an ignorant thing to say. You act as if the only power that the Holy Spirit has is to make women pregnant. But, then that would mean that you aren't doing it right or something is defective with you. And, hey, that is charitably granting that you really have been having intimate encounters with the HS and that your presumption that the HS is only good for sex is correct.

Safely, though, I may say that making babies is not the sole function of the Holy Spirit. Though, I do understand why you might think that all God does is go around having sex and populating planets.

Alas, such is what happens to the mind of those who are incapable of independent thought. Restornu, abandon this theology which has warped your mind. There is something better. It is called the truth. And it doesn't have every single visitation by the Holy Spirit some kind of incubus encounter.

Woody.

[Elsie]

Let's see........

If they are in the temple baptizing for the dead, that means they won't be out in the streets, trolling for new members.

Decisions decisions.............