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Again, Jews Fault Mormons Over Posthumous Baptisms
NY Times ^ | December 21, 2003 | IAN URBINA

Posted on 12/21/2003 4:41:40 AM PST by Pharmboy

Jewish group says it is considering legal action in an effort to stop the Mormon Church from posthumously baptizing many Jews, especially Holocaust victims.

Under the practice, known by Mormons as vicarious baptism — a significant rite of the church — the dead are baptized by living church members who stand in as proxies.

But in 1995, after evidence emerged that at least 380,000 names of Jewish Holocaust victims were on baptismal lists in the church's extensive archives in Salt Lake City, the church agreed to end vicarious baptism without consent from the descendants of the dead. Church officials also said the church would remove the names of Holocaust victims placed on the lists before 1995.

"For the last seven years, we've had entirely cordial relations with the Mormons," said Ernest Michel, who negotiated the agreement on behalf of the American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, which is based in New York and claims 180,000 members. "But the agreement is clear and they have not held up their end."

Last year, Helen Radkey, an independent researcher in Salt Lake City, gave Mr. Michel evidence that the Mormon lists still included the names of at least 20,000 Jews, many of them Holocaust victims and prominent figures like the philosopher Theodor Herzl and David Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel. Ms. Radkey also provided Mr. Michel with evidence that many of these Jews had been baptized after the 1995 agreement.

But Mormon officials say they remain in full compliance with the 1995 agreement.

"We have actually gone above and beyond," said D. Todd Christofferson, a church official involved with the negotiations. The church removed the names of Holocaust victims listed before 1995 and continues to instruct its members to avoid baptizing Jews who are not directly related to living Mormons or whose immediate family has not given written consent, Mr. Christofferson said.

But he said it was not the church's responsibility to monitor the archives to ensure that no new Jewish names appear. "We never had in mind that we would, on a continual basis, go in and ferret out the Jewish names," Mr. Christofferson said, adding that the labor involved in constantly sifting through an ever-expanding archive, which contains more than 400 million names, would represent an "intolerable burden."

"When the church is made aware of documented concerns, action is taken in compliance with the agreement," he said.

Some Jewish genealogists agree with the Mormon interpretation of the agreement. "I have a copy of the agreement," said Gary Mokotoff, the publisher of Avotaynu, the International Review of Jewish Genealogy. "The wording is vague in some places, but it definitely does not obligate the Mormons to scour their own archives on an ongoing basis."

But Mr. Michel, who said he became involved in the issue after reading about posthumous baptisms in the Jewish newspaper The Forward, contends that the agreement obliges the Mormon Church to monitor the post-1995 lists and remove the names of Jews that appear.

"They put the names in there, they should have to take them out, and the agreement says as much," he said. "Why should we have to do their job for them?" He said the group was considering legal action but would not provide details.

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, whom Mr. Michel contacted, said she planned to take up the matter with Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah, a Republican and a Mormon. "Senator Hatch was immensely helpful in brokering the 1995 agreement, so we're hoping he can get involved again now," she said in a telephone interview.

With approximately 11 million members worldwide, the Mormon Church, known formally as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is one of the fastest-growing in the world, partly because of a strong missionary effort. The importance of the family structure is central to church doctrine and is a reason for the extensive archives kept by the International Genealogical Index in Salt Lake City. The archives include detailed biographical information of 400 million people going back centuries. The names of those to be posthumously baptized are drawn from the archives.

According to Mormon theology, all people, living or dead, possess "free agency," and posthumous baptisms provide only an option, not an obligation, to join the religion in the afterlife. Church membership numbers do not include those baptized after death, Mr. Christofferson said.

Originally, the practice was reserved for ancestors of church members, but over the years many other people have been baptized posthumously. "There is no way to prevent overzealous members doing mission work from submitting names that don't belong," Mr. Christofferson said.

Ms. Radkey, an Australian-born Christian, said she began researching the Mormon practice in 1999 after discovering that the teenage diarist Anne Frank had been posthumously baptized.


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To: missyme
And you're absolutely SURE that there is an afterlife, huh?
221 posted on 12/22/2003 7:33:34 AM PST by Pharmboy (History's greatest agent for democracy: The US Armed Forces)
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To: Spiff
Yet, the Church survived and grew worldwide despite Joseph's martyrdom. So has Islam -- so what?
222 posted on 12/22/2003 7:34:59 AM PST by Elsie (Don't believe every prophecy you hear: especially *** ones........)
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To: Spiff
I think that the very best source on an organization and its history is disgruntled exmembers with a grudge.

Got any WITHOUT a grudge?

Is it even REMOTELY possible (in the LDS organizations thinking) that there may be someone, somewhere, that is ex-Mormon that merely wants the others still inside to see the light as they have?

Or are ALL ex's suspect????

223 posted on 12/22/2003 7:37:37 AM PST by Elsie (Don't believe every prophecy you hear: especially *** ones........)
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To: Cronos; Flying Circus
Praying for the dead is not the same as writing my ancestors names up and saying: "hoo hoo your great granny's one of us!"

Can I ask a dumb question? If baptism is necessary for salvation as you probably believe and a person dies without being baptized, what good would it do to pray for them? Do catholics only pray for dead Catholics? Or do you guys pray for dead friends, dead relatives, dead presidents, the grateful dead....? And if so, then what good would it do if they weren't baptized? Are you praying that they can be promoted to a higher place in hell, a little further from the flames?

the part about becoming family pets is really out of some crazy imagination.

Thank you. It's nice to see you recognize my insane imagination. Some people think I'm serious and get all upset and think that I'm some kind of anti catholic hating bigot when I make the slightest joke about Catholics. Then, after they post a "bigoted anti Mormon" comment like: "you wouldn't put the original and most orthodox of christian churches into a list with non-christian groups like Mormons and JWs", they accuse me of being an Anti-Catholic bigot because I made a joke about the somewhat cranky attitudes of some of the Catholics over on the Catholic threads on the religion forum.

You guys need to pull the wedgies out of your pants and lighten up a little.

224 posted on 12/22/2003 7:40:18 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Pharmboy
Yes I am.
Be that I am in the Medical Field and have read quite a bit about people that have been clinically dead and have been brought back to life, all of them with a strong beleif in G-d have the same experience no matter what religion you are. What happens after the white light expereince is anyone's guess, but I beleive in Jesus and what he has to say about Death and that experience.

The flesh will die bit the sould lives on.
225 posted on 12/22/2003 7:43:23 AM PST by missyme
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To: maui_hawaii

In LDS doctrine it is entire up to the individual to accept or not accept, and that includes any and all posthumous ordinance work.

If someone waited until you died and did a baptism on your behalf, you or anyone else, even though you're gone from here still have the personal choice to make.

 

It's appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgement.

 

So, in LDS organization theology, after the comma and before the and  comes ANOTHER chance to accept or reject JESUS?



226 posted on 12/22/2003 7:44:13 AM PST by Elsie (When the avalanche starts... it's too late for the pebbles to vote....)
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To: maui_hawaii
Its more like "everyone gets a fair first chance"...

My... how boastful!


"..until JS came along, NOTHING the existing church has done was sufficient."
227 posted on 12/22/2003 7:46:10 AM PST by Elsie (When the avalanche starts... it's too late for the pebbles to vote....)
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To: maui_hawaii
According to LDS beliefs when Jesus came, he brought a new and higher covenant with Him.

Yeah... the prophet Jeremiah had something to say along that line.........

228 posted on 12/22/2003 7:49:31 AM PST by Elsie (When the avalanche starts... it's too late for the pebbles to vote....)
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To: P-Marlowe
This is NOT just praying for other folks.

It's about distorting history and claiming: "all your ancestors are belong to us"
229 posted on 12/22/2003 7:49:55 AM PST by Cronos (W2004!)
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To: Spiff
We don't know their status - whether they accepted or rejected the ordinance. We only did the work for them to give them the opportunity to accept or reject.

I'm sorry Spiff, I don't follow you. Why can't our ancestors do the accepting themselveS? Why do they need a specific system??????
230 posted on 12/22/2003 7:54:39 AM PST by Cronos (W2004!)
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To: Spiff
What's with the polygamy thing. We don't practice it.
 
 
The fundamentalists do!
 
They made up THEIR mind according to what 'god' supposedly said thru JS.
This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to answer it for yourselves. I shall not answer it; but I say to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have.
[From OD#1]
And, unlike those wimps who where afraid of having their temple and land confiscated by the US government, THEY are going to jail TODAY for continuing in what they believe to be true on this subject!
 

231 posted on 12/22/2003 7:54:40 AM PST by Elsie (When the avalanche starts... it's too late for the pebbles to vote....)
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To: missyme
Well, I'm in the medical field also, and data is what I go by, not faith. And, so far, no data to convince me and I am not moved by hope. Just the facts, ma'm.
232 posted on 12/22/2003 7:55:48 AM PST by Pharmboy (History's greatest agent for democracy: The US Armed Forces)
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To: maui_hawaii
Thats why we do so much geneology. 99.9% of the baptisms for the dead are done for direct ancestors.

It seems to me that this narrow set of folks should have been used up LONG ago.....

233 posted on 12/22/2003 7:58:38 AM PST by Elsie (When the avalanche starts... it's too late for the pebbles to vote....)
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" dum dum dum dum dum..."
234 posted on 12/22/2003 8:02:29 AM PST by King Nothing (To secure peace is to prepare for war. -- Metallica - Don't Tread on Me)
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To: tracer
...that those who practice it today have sinned and broken the laws of the land; ....
 
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!
 
Not GOD's law!!!!!!!!!!
 
You CANNOT show, from any LDS writings, that GOD said to STOP doing it!

 
 
OFFICIAL DECLARATION--1

To Whom It May Concern:

Press dispatches having been sent for political purposes, from Salt Lake City, which have been widely published, to the effect that the Utah Commission, in their recent report to the Secretary of the Interior, allege that plural marriages are still being solemnized and that forty or more such marriages have been contracted in Utah since last June or during the past year, also that in public discourses the leaders of the Church have taught, encouraged and urged the continuance of the practice of polygamy--

I, therefore, as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, do hereby, in the most solemn manner, declare that these charges are false. We are not teaching polygamy or plural marriage, nor permitting any person to enter into its practice, and I deny that either forty or any other number of plural marriages have during that period been solemnized in our Temples or in any other place in the Territory.

One case has been reported, in which the parties allege that the marriage was performed in the Endowment House, in Salt Lake City, in the Spring of 1889, but I have not been able to learn who performed the ceremony; whatever was done in this matter was without my knowledge. In consequence of this alleged occurrence the Endowment House was, by my instructions, taken down without delay.

Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws, and to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise.

There is nothing in my teachings to the Church or in those of my associates, during the time specified, which can be reasonably construed to inculcate or encourage polygamy; and when any Elder of the Church has used language which appeared to convey any such teaching, he has been promptly reproved. And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.

WILFORD WOODRUFF
President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.



President Lorenzo Snow offered the following:

"I move that, recognizing Wilford Woodruff as the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the only man on the earth at the present time who holds the keys of the sealing ordinances, we consider him fully authorized by virtue of his position to issue the Manifesto which has been read in our hearing, and which is dated September 24th, 1890, and that as a Church in General Conference assembled, we accept his declaration concerning plural marriages as authoritative and binding."

The vote to sustain the foregoing motion was unanimous.

Salt Lake City, Utah, October 6, 1890.


EXCERPTS FROM THREE ADDRESSES BY
PRESIDENT WILFORD WOODRUFF
REGARDING THE MANIFESTO

The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)

It matters not who lives or who dies, or who is called to lead this Church, they have got to lead it by the inspiration of Almighty God. If they do not do it that way, they cannot do it at all. . . .

I have had some revelations of late, and very important ones to me, and I will tell you what the Lord has said to me. Let me bring your minds to what is termed the manifesto. . . .

The Lord has told me to ask the Latter-day Saints a question, and He also told me that if they would listen to what I said to them and answer the question put to them, by the Spirit and power of God, they would all answer alike, and they would all believe alike with regard to this matter.

The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-day Saints to pursue--to continue to attempt to practice plural marriage, with the laws of the nation against it and the opposition of sixty millions of people, and at the cost of the confiscation and loss of all the Temples, and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the heads of families in the Church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice); or, after doing and suffering what we have through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law, and through doing so leave the Prophets, Apostles and fathers at home, so that they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church, and also leave the Temples in the hands of the Saints, so that they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead?

The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. If we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for . . . any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practice. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our Prophets and Apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed. A large number has already been delivered from the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints.
You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to answer it for yourselves. I shall not answer it; but I say to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have.

. . . I saw exactly what would come to pass if there was not something done. I have had this spirit upon me for a long time. But I want to say this: I should have let all the temples go out of our hands; I should have gone to prison myself, and let every other man go there, had not the God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write. . . .

I leave this with you, for you to contemplate and consider. The Lord is at work with us.
(Cache Stake Conference, Logan, Utah, Sunday, November 1, 1891. Reported in Deseret Weekly, November 14, 1891.)

Now I will tell you what was manifested to me and what the Son of God performed in this thing. . . . All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it.
 
(From a discourse at the sixth session of the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple, April 1893. Typescript of Dedicatory Services, Archives, Church Historical Department, Salt Lake City, Utah.)
 
 
commanded...
Hmm.... where is the POWER of the
THUS SAITH the LORD??

235 posted on 12/22/2003 8:04:54 AM PST by Elsie (When the avalanche starts... it's too late for the pebbles to vote....)
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To: SaucyCranberry
You're exactly right, the spirit (no pun intended) and intention of praying for the dead is entirely different than what's going on here.
Catholics are just the opposite:

They get the DEAD to pray for YOU!

236 posted on 12/22/2003 8:08:10 AM PST by Elsie (When the avalanche starts... it's too late for the pebbles to vote....)
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To: Tall_Texan
Wasn't Jesus that gentleman who claimed to be God's son, could walk on water, heal the sick and turn water into wine? And didn't He get grabbed and put into prison where He was convicted and put to death?

You are abolutely RIGHT!!!


But.........

HE came OUT OF THE grave, and it's THIS fact upon which Christians hang their hat!

237 posted on 12/22/2003 8:10:03 AM PST by Elsie (When the avalanche starts... it's too late for the pebbles to vote....)
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To: Pharmboy
WELL THE FACTS ARE THAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DECLARED CLINICALLY DEAD AND HAVE HAD AN AFTERLIFE EXPERIENCE THAT IS A FACT....
238 posted on 12/22/2003 8:11:58 AM PST by missyme
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To: Cronos
It's about distorting history and claiming: "all your ancestors are belong to us"

Lighten up. They don't claim that. They are just doing what they think is right and frankly you have no claim to your relatives anyway. Your relatives belong to God and nothing the LDS do is going to change that.

If you feel that strongly about it, then I suggest you go and pray for Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and all the Mormons. You can claim them as yours. "All your Prophets and Apostles are belong to us."

239 posted on 12/22/2003 8:12:27 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Spiff
Plus, members of the LDS Church never asked for reparations though they, more than any other group in the history of this nation, were demonstrably wronged, repeatedly, by the Federal government.

Instead, they just kept going.

240 posted on 12/22/2003 8:15:54 AM PST by mrobison (We are the music makers and we are the dreamers of dreams.)
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