cheap trick behind the most devastating lie in the history of mankind

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_Poll ^ | 10/15/2003 | self

[Ogmios]

You did the same thing that Quinn did!! LOL

I knew that that would bring all kinds of fun reactions...

[Ogmios]

OK, now I am really going to bed...

[dangus]

>> I didn't say that he remained Catholic, just that he was.
>>You take offense rather quickly, so what cart are you pushing?

You said "Hitler was Catholic," in a discussion about the relation among Darwinists, atheists, and genocide. Don't attack people for interpreting you as Qwinn did.

[dsc]

"Really? Well then, I gotta wonder why the word "evolution" does not appear in the Communist Manifesto."

Well, they also deleted references to destroying the family, on the advice of people who thought it was tipping their hand too soon.

[Qwinn]

"Creationists: Don't miss a point! abiogenesis is not essential to evolution! Evolution means that natural processes were used in creation, it does not mean that there is no God!"

I would certainly agree here. The reason I don't get upset with 7-day literalists is because... well... I hardly know any. I'm sure that if there are some around, they -will- show up around here :) But the vast number of people I know who do have genuine religious faith have absolutely no problem reconciling evolution as the mechanism for how God engineered the vast variety of animal and plant life, anymore than they have a problem with God creating gravity and nuclear fusion as mechanisms for keeping the Earth warm. They have no problem with the notion that God created life and let evolution as a natural process take it from there. Many of them -do- have a problem with the notion that God didn't create humanity directly. But to me, if one can accept that God had a hand in abiogenesis, I don't see any problem at all with accepting that He put His personal touch on the final product.

Frankly, though, I'm not even willing to say the 7-day literalists HAVE to be wrong either! The whole notion that God put those fossils there in order to test our faith, while it does seem a bit too convenient for my tastes, IS a perfectly self-consistent philosophy. I don't really lose intellectual respect for people until they start preaching philosophies that can't avoid internal inconsistencies.

Qwinn

[dangus]

>>>>Yes, in fact, those evil Inquisitors, throughtout all it's centuries, killed less people than died during 3 average days under communism.

>> As I said, their means were limited.

From what you said, one could draw the false implication that the inquisitors wanted to kill more people. The inquisitors did not kill anyone who professed Judaism or Islam. They killed only those who professed Catholicism, but whom they believed to hold other beliefs incompatible with Catholicism. The intent was to weed out infiltration and subversion, and their means were, for their day, so principled that many accused of civil crimes actually faked heresy so as to be tried by the inquisitors rather than the local law enforcement.

Today the following may not sound like much, but given the time, was remarkable: No-one was ever tortured for more than 15 minutes; no-one was ever tortured more than twice; fewer than one percent were ever tortured twice.

[Ogmios]

Oh, and FYI before I go to bed, Quinn, you, and I, and most others here, actually agree.

We just seem to jump each other too soon to realize it.. LOL

[Qwinn]

Heheh agreed :) G'nite.

Actually the only person who really aggravated me tonight was Sentis. Claiming I was a 7-day creationist masking as an agnostic *rolls eyes*

Qwinn

[dangus]

I disagree... Your pendulum theory is another thing my left-wing professors always said to try to suggest that the present excesses would disappear, and subtly suggest that if anyone had a problem wit them, they would help swing the pendulum too far the other way.

There is nothing wrong with an excess of true religious spirituality. Look at the greatest religious extremist of all time, Jesus Christ. Not a bad guy! The problem is religoius frauds, irreligious people who cloak themselves in religion to lead people astray, and nut jobs who overcompensate for their insecurity about their *lack* of faith by becoming sticklers for outward appearances. (The religious equivalent to the homophobic gay.)

I can't prove it, but look at the days the terror-bombers lived immediately before they struck... did their actions demonstrate a love for God? (Hookers, drugs, gambling.) Or look at the whack job Calvinists who give fundamentalists a bad name... Does their belief that God will destroy and eternally torment everybody but them speak of a faith in God's love?

[dangus]

If you can read "Mein Kampf" and believe that Hitler believed in anything that approached traditional definitions of what a god is, (I'm not even talking a Christian God, even a pagan god!) I truly don't know how to respond to you.

[Qwinn]

"Look at the NRA's platform (government-sponsored abortion, homosexual rights, marxist economics) and their methods (terrorism) and you tell me that it's a religious war."

I suspect you might have meant the IRA ;) Charlton Heston gets some bad press, but I don't think he deserves all -that-...

Qwinn

[dangus]

>>>>Evolution means that natural processes were used in creation, it does not mean that there is no God!

>>There are those of us within the evolution-camp that firmly believe in a Creator. Please do not make this very common mistake.

I'm not sure what your problem with what I said was... I meant to specifically allow that evolution does not mean there is no God. (I'm a Christian who does believe in evolution, if not all the garbage that creationists sometimes attach to evolution.) Or are you arguing for recognition that some believe in a Creator who is not identifiable as "God"?

[dangus]

>>>>Look at the NRA's platform (government-sponsored abortion, homosexual rights, marxist economics) and their methods (terrorism) and you tell me that it's a religious war."

>>I suspect you might have meant the IRA ;) Charlton Heston gets some bad press, but I don't think he deserves all -that-...

*LOL*

Dang... The "N" isn't even near the "I." It must be too late. But for the record, Heston doesn't get off too easy... he was the main draw of the most G*d-awful, insipid, stupid movie of all time which was pure Nihilism propaganda: Planet of the Apes.

Acting: D-
Story: F
Directing: F
Special Effects: F
Suspension of disbelief: F
Gimmickiness: F
Preachiness: F
Ideological Content: F-, if there were such a thing

And why am I the only offended by seeing the obvious comparisons with the race situation?

[Ichneumon]

If you can read "Mein Kampf" and believe that Hitler believed in anything that approached traditional definitions of what a god is, (I'm not even talking a Christian God, even a pagan god!) I truly don't know how to respond to you

If you can find anywhere that you think I claimed that Hitler had a "traditional" view on that (or anything else, for that matter), then you might have some reason to take issue with my posts. But since I didn't...

[Aracelis]

Or are you arguing for recognition that some believe in a Creator who is not identifiable as "God"?

No, not at all...and my comment wasn't directly solely at you. However, quite often on these threads, evolution becomes the driving force behind all of society's ills, including Stalin, Marx, Hitler and the Nazi's (I'm sure you've read posts suggesting this). I merely stated a fact, and you have reinforced it by asserting that you yourself are a Christian that believes God used evolution in His creation...as do I.

[jennyp]

I point out that a religion is a system of beliefs. Atheism is indeed a system of beliefs!

That's astute. How does that quote go...

"Jesus was condemned. Hitler is condemned. Hitler is like Jesus."

Darn! I'm looking for a source for that quote, and I'm stumbling upon some really cool ones I've never heard before:

Jesus was the first socialist, the first to seek a better life for mankind.
- Mikhail S. Gorbachev

I never saw a contradiction between the ideas that sustain me and the ideas of that symbol, of that extraordinary figure [Jesus Christ].
- Fidel Castro

[Dimensio]

That would include agnostics as well.

No, an agnostic is one who believes that it is impossible to know whether or not a god exists. An agnostic could accept the existence of god "on faith" and still be a theist.

Being atheist implies an active DENIAL of the concept of gods.

A = without.
Theism = belief in a god or gods.
Atheism = without belief in a god or gods.

It's like how asymmetry means "without symmetry". That you don't like the definition of atheism does not change it.

[Dimensio]

Tells me that most atheists are indeed democrats.

False dichotomy fallacy. It is possible for someone to be neither Democrat nor Republican.

[Ichneumon]

93% of Americans CLAIM to be Christian, only about 40% have any knowledge of Christianity at all.

Say what?

[Qwinn]

Jenny, don't misunderstand the reason that I brought that concept up. It wasn't to attempt to link the virtues of atheism and other religions - quite the opposite.

My point was that atheists always seem to have a grand old time denouncing the sanctimoniousness and self-righteousness of those of Faith, and my point was that they suffer from those character traits even worse than the most obnoxious Puritan or Calvinist I ever read about. I stand by that.

In that sense - in the frothing, dogmatic approach to it all - yup, atheism most definetly should be considered a religion. This has the great benefit that, therefore, the current notion of stripping God out of every public venue is, in fact, establishing laws that declare a state religion - atheism.

Agnosticism is the only philosophy I know of that can't be dogmatic, since it's basic premise is indecision on the whole question. My view is that what this loses in terms of cowardice in being unwilling to a commit to a position, it at least somewhat makes up for in intellectual honesty and open-mindedness.

Qwinn