Posted on 08/22/2003 6:13:30 AM PDT by AmericanInTokyo
In defense of Moses-Egyptians may sue Jews over the Exodus.
Jerusalem Post ^ | 8-28-03 | Moshe Kohn
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/971918/posts
The dean of Al-Zaqaziq University’s School of Law, Dr. Nabil Hilmi, and a group of Egyptian expatriates in Switzerland are preparing to sue “all the Jews of the world and the Jews of Israel in particular” for compensation for the wealth the Bible says the Jews “stole” when Moses led them out of Egypt 34 centuries ago (Jerusalem Post, August 22).
Hilmi kindly offered to let us pay in installments over 1,000 years with interest, of course. It seems that where it suits Bible-deniers like Muslims who deny that the Jews have a history whose first stages are described in the Torah, those deniers quote that same Torah when the quotation presumably shows our bad side. It also seems that where the Jews are concerned, Muslims are prepared to violate Islamic law by taking interest.
Be that as it may, it is interesting to note the outcome of a similar suit brought by the Egyptians some twenty-three-and-a-half centuries ago, in which the plaintiffs also based themselves on the Torah.
I will here give a composite of three slightly varying records of that lawsuit, which appear in Megillat Taanit, chapter 3; Talmud tractate Sanhedrin 91a; and Midrash Bereshit Rabba 41:7. When the world conqueror Alexander of Macedonia was in our region, the Ishmaelites, Canaanites, and Egyptians appeared before him to challenge the Jewish people’s rights.
The Jewish leaders, fearful of the consequences, were unable to decide who should present the case of the Jews. Finally, one Geviha, son of Pesissa, volunteered, saying: “If I succeed, you will be able to say the case according to the Torah was so clear-cut that even a nobody like Geviha was able to win. If I fail, you will be able to appeal, saying: ‘We were badly represented by an ignorant nobody.’”
The Ishmaelites were the first to speak: “Your majesty, our suit is based on their Torah, which says (Deuteronomy 21: 15-17), ‘If a man has two wives, one of whom he loves and the other he hates, and his firstborn son is the child of the hated wife when the time comes that he assigns his possessions as an inheritance to his sons he shall acknowledge the firstborn, the son of the hated wife, by giving him a double portion of all he possesses ‘ Accordingly, Abraham’s firstborn son Ishmael, son of Hagar, Abraham’s hated wife, is nonetheless entitled to a double portion of Abraham’s inheritance [including the Promised Land].”
Alexander told Geviha to respond. He said: “Since the Ishmaelites cite the Torah, I will also do so. Your majesty, isn’t it true that while a man still lives he may dispose of his property as he wishes?” Alexander agreed. And Geviha continued: “The Torah reports (Genesis 25: 5-6), ‘And Abraham gave all he had to Isaac. But to the sons of the concubines Abraham gave gifts, and while he was still living he sent them away from his son Isaac, eastward to the east country.’ “ The Ishmaelites had no rebuttal and withdrew shamefacedly.
NOW THE Canaanites stepped forward and demanded that what the Torah many times refers to as “the Land of Canaan” be returned to them. Geviha responded: “Your majesty, isn’t it true that whatever a slave possesses belongs to his master?” Alexander and the Canaanite plaintiffs conceded this point [remember: We are in the third century BCE].
Geviha continued: “Well, the same Torah that the plaintiffs cite also says (Genesis 9: 24-25): ‘When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him, he said, ‘Cursed be Canaan; a slave of slaves shall he be to his brothers.’”
The Canaanites had no rebuttal and left shamefacedly. Now it was the turn of the Egyptians. They said: “According to their Torah, 600,000 people [Exodus 12: 40-41 and 38: 36] left our country loaded with our silver and gold [Exodus 12: 35-36]. ‘And the Children of Israel did as Moses had told them, and they asked of the Egyptians jewelry of silver and of gold, and clothing. And God gave the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they let them have what they asked; and they despoiled the Egyptians.’ That being so,” the Egyptians said, “we demand the return of the silver and gold the Jews took from us.”
Geviha responded: “Your majesty, 600,000 people slaved for the Egyptians for 210 years [Midrash Bereshit Rabba 91:2]. The slaves included silversmiths and goldsmiths, whose standard pay today is one dinar a day. We demand the money due to the Jewish people.”
The Egyptian philosophers calculated that indemnifying the Jews would leave the Egyptians bankrupt in less than 100 years, and the plaintiffs left shamefacedly.
ALL THIS happened on the 25th day of the month of Sivan, which in talmudic times was marked as a semi-holiday on which all mourning practices were forbidden. So much for Hilmi’s suit and for his ancestors’ suit of 24 centuries ago.
Today the Jewish people might sue Egypt and, to use his terminology, “all the Muslims of the world and the Muslims of Egypt in particular” for all the Jewish blood the Egyptians and our other Arab neighbors and their allies have shed in the past 85 years out of sheer hatred, and all the Jewish property they have damaged out of sheer malice.
But better than these suits and countersuits would be those Arabs and Muslims forsaking their demonology and joining the civilized world, such as it is.
The writer is a veteran commentator for The Jerusalem Post.
High Volume. Articles on Israel can also be found by clicking on the Topic or Keyword Israel. or WOT [War on Terror]
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Old but timely. The last lawsuit is detailed in post 43.
BAHOG!
Let's see, Egyptians against Jewish lawyers. Wonder who will win....
Oh hell yes.
So, under what Islamic interpretation is anyone suppose to define "theft" from Exodus Chapter 35, verses 12 to 35; given as follows (NIV, New International Version):
Exodus 35 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV)
1 Moses assembled the whole Israelite community and said to them, "These are the things the LORD has commanded you to do: 2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. 3 Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.
4 Moses said to the whole Israelite community, "This is what the LORD has commanded: 5 From what you have, take an offering for the LORD. Everyone who is willing is to bring to the LORD an offering of gold, silver and bronze; 6 blue, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen; goat hair; 7 ram skins dyed red and hides of sea cows [a] ; acacia wood; 8 olive oil for the light; spices for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense; 9 and onyx stones and other gems to be mounted on the ephod and breastpiece.
10 "All who are skilled among you are to come and make everything the LORD has commanded: 11 the tabernacle with its tent and its covering, clasps, frames, crossbars, posts and bases; 12 the ark with its poles and the atonement cover and the curtain that shields it; 13 the table with its poles and all its articles and the bread of the Presence; 14 the lampstand that is for light with its accessories, lamps and oil for the light; 15 the altar of incense with its poles, the anointing oil and the fragrant incense; the curtain for the doorway at the entrance to the tabernacle; 16 the altar of burnt offering with its bronze grating, its poles and all its utensils; the bronze basin with its stand; 17 the curtains of the courtyard with its posts and bases, and the curtain for the entrance to the courtyard; 18 the tent pegs for the tabernacle and for the courtyard, and their ropes; 19 the woven garments worn for ministering in the sanctuary—both the sacred garments for Aaron the priest and the garments for his sons when they serve as priests."
20 Then the whole Israelite community withdrew from Moses' presence, 21 and everyone who was willing and whose heart moved him came and brought an offering to the LORD for the work on the Tent of Meeting, for all its service, and for the sacred garments. 22 All who were willing, men and women alike, came and brought gold jewelry of all kinds: brooches, earrings, rings and ornaments. They all presented their gold as a wave offering to the LORD. 23 Everyone who had blue, purple or scarlet yarn or fine linen, or goat hair, ram skins dyed red or hides of sea cows brought them. 24 Those presenting an offering of silver or bronze brought it as an offering to the LORD, and everyone who had acacia wood for any part of the work brought it. 25 Every skilled woman spun with her hands and brought what she had spun—blue, purple or scarlet yarn or fine linen. 26 And all the women who were willing and had the skill spun the goat hair. 27 The leaders brought onyx stones and other gems to be mounted on the ephod and breastpiece. 28 They also brought spices and olive oil for the light and for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense. 29 All the Israelite men and women who were willing brought to the LORD freewill offerings for all the work the LORD through Moses had commanded them to do.
30 Then Moses said to the Israelites, "See, the LORD has chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 31 and he has filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts 32 to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, 33 to cut and set stones, to work in wood and to engage in all kinds of artistic craftsmanship. 34 And he has given both him and Oholiab son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan, the ability to teach others. 35 He has filled them with skill to do all kinds of work as craftsmen, designers, embroiderers in blue, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen, and weavers—all of them master craftsmen and designers.
So, is it not apparent, that we find an Egyptian's legal argument that only western Marxists could love; for in order for the above passages to be the basis of a charge of "theft", obviously, the possessions of "the Jews" must be considered the property of Pharoah's state and "the Jews" did not really have the right to even the clothes on their backs when they left!!!!
Or, maybe the learned Islamic cleric had poor memory and while he said Exodus Chapter 35, verses 12 to 36 was "the Jews" theft in their own words, maybe he meant Exodus Chapter 12, verses 35 and 36. Those verses come at the end of the plagues, and the killing of the Egyptian first born, visited on Egypt for the Pharoah's refusal to release the Jews from bondage; the release from bondage told in Chapter 12, just prior to verses 35-36, as follows:
Exodus Chapter 12, beginning at verse 29:
29And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
30And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.
31And he called for Moses and Aaron by night, and said, Rise up, and get you forth from among my people, both ye and the children of Israel; and go, serve the LORD, as ye have said.
32Also take your flocks and your herds, as ye have said, and be gone; and bless me also.
33And the Egyptians were urgent upon the people, that they might send them out of the land in haste; for they said, We be all dead men.
34And the people took their dough before it was leavened, their kneading troughs being bound up in their clothes upon their shoulders.
35And the children of Israel did according to the word of Moses; and they borrowed of the Egyptians jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment:
36And the LORD gave the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent unto them such things as they required. And they despoiled the Egyptians.
37And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.
38And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.
So, here we have it: "they borrowed of the Egyptians jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment".
But, if the Islamic lawyers want to use that as their basis, then "the Jews", on the same basis, should argue that the "borrowing" was mere part payment for the 430 years of bondage in Egypt, attested to throughout the entire proof source of Exodus; and should then counter sue for the balance of the payment needed to render "Egypt" pardoned of the sin of slavery of "the Jews".
Good luck collecting, morons.
Has anyone asked this guy what he thinks?
They don’t want much..don’t want no fancy fun’ral, just one like ole King Tut..
Cue up Egyptian music...
Now that’s what I’m talkin’ about.
Fun stuff, but been there done that.
The islamist really want the war, no matter how much the liberals burry their heads.
Meanwhile some Jewish group should sue all Arabs, Persians Medes and everyone else for all their oppression that they have had to endure for many generations....
I can hardly even remember posting that FOUR YEARS AGO!!
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