Alabama SC justices cave, order Ten Commandments removed

AP on Fox News ^ | 8-21-03 | AP on Fox News website

[rwfromkansas]

MONTGOMERY, Ala.

[lugsoul]

"There would still have to be an official organization, otherwise anybody could just up and call himself an imam."

Yep. That would be the case. Though not everyone would have to agree, or listen to him. It is more of a bottom-up thing than a top-down thing.

[whattajoke]

If there is no God then to be anything less than totally hedonistic makes no sense.

And yet, somehow here I am, married man, good job, moral, just, fair, friendly, etc. Divorce/adultery rates are equal among the pious. There are good christians and there are bad christians. There are good atheists and there are bad ones. But everyone knows killing, stealing, and lying are wrong. Pretty simply stuff here.

[lugsoul]

Okay, then - let's get back to the basic question. Moore said Hinduism and Buddhism are not "religions" as that word is used in the 1st Amendment. Why not? What else is not? What would be required for them to be "religions?" What kind of "organization" do they need? Is Islam a "religion" for purposes of the 1st Amendment?

[Lost Highway]

Huh? Chance? Not at all. The laws of physics have little to do with chance, except perhaps on the most basic subatomic level. I'm not a physicist or a cosmologist, so I can't say I understand all the ins and outs of the origins of the Earth or the universe.

I also am not a physicist or a cosmologist. I guess I define chance in this context as the lack of a creator. But fundamentally I would no more assume the earth did not have a creator than the building I am sitting in.

Quite frankly, it doesn't matter all that much to me. It's here. I'm here. It was here before I got here and it'll be here after I'm dead. I'm a lot more concerned with what I'll cook for dinner tonight than I am with the origins of the Universe.

Fair enough. I appreciate your answers. I know it's off topic but I don't have much interaction with athiests (that I know of).

[MineralMan]

""There would still have to be an official organization, otherwise anybody could just up and call himself an imam."

Yep. That would be the case. Though not everyone would have to agree, or listen to him. It is more of a bottom-up thing than a top-down thing."

Not that much different from Protestant Christianity, really. Anyone can start a church and declare him/herself a minister. You can just start preaching. If you can attract a following, then you have a viable Christian church. There are so many of them around here that were started just that way.

[MineralMan]

"If there is no God then to be anything less than totally hedonistic makes no sense."

How silly!

[MineralMan]

"Fair enough. I appreciate your answers. I know it's off topic but I don't have much interaction with athiests (that I know of)."

No problem. I'm always happy to say what I think. [grin]

[INSENSITIVE GUY]

We vote for president and we vote for members of congress,it is now time to change and get rid of this system of appointing judges.We should vote in the judges and have some kind of accountability because these people are completely out of control.

[Lost Highway]

And yet, somehow here I am, married man, good job, moral, just, fair, friendly, etc. Divorce/adultery rates are equal among the pious. There are good christians and there are bad christians. There are good atheists and there are bad ones. But everyone knows killing, stealing, and lying are wrong. Pretty simply stuff here.

Yes, I find it puzzling (no offense intended). I understand right and wrong because I believe my God made it so. If there is no God what makes right right and wrong wrong? (I'm sorry if I seem obtuse but I do not have much interaction with athiests.)

[wardaddy]

OK, I have not read his book on the Stars but here is a link to a letter from his ministry.

I do not think the simple fact that he utilizes TV to broadcast his service evidence of his being a charlatan...anymore than I do Dr Graham or his son or Dr Stanley etc.

I do not much care for Benny Hinn and his ilk and can make a distinction.

I am very much politically and culturally in synch with Kennedy and Graham and their "ilk" as are many Christians I know...most of whom are educated and conservative and middle or upper middle class (not that it matters).

Now lug, let's look at who your are aligned with:

The ACLU.

Morris Dees (it has been testified under oath that he attempted to sleep with his teen stepdaughter and is a well known mega liberal extortionist who has made a career of race baiting) Find me anyone of repute in Montgomery who will attest to his character...AME pastors don't count..lol

Americans United for Separation of Church and State....have you looked at their website? As left as they come

http://www.au.org/about/

Here's a link the Kennedy and the stars controversy you keep harping on:

http://www.crm.tv/zodiac.html

Your attempt to smear Moore by guilt of association is hollow while the folks you have made your faustian alliance with need little explaining to most of us here.

[talleyman]

The link would probably be helpful...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/968171/posts

[lugsoul]

You are correct with regard to SOME Protestant denominations, but not all. Some (Episcopalian, Methodist) have fairly rigid hierarchys. Some (Church of Christ - NOT United Church of Christ) have no ordination, no structure, and have individual congregations run entirely by elders. Under inquest's construct, some of these would be "religions" for 1st Amendment purposes and some would not.

I would note, however, that Moore's view does not follow that line of thought. He thinks "religion" meant Christian denominations. I've tried to find my source for that - a piece he wrote - online so I could link it. I haven't yet.

[lugsoul]

Actually, wardaddy, I'm not "aligned" with anyone. And it is not simply guilt by association when Kennedy is paying the bills.

You want to align me with someone on this case - call me aligned with 11th Circuit Judge Ed Carnes. Now go try to find anything even slightly questionable about him.

Given the tone of your post, perhaps I'm moving into your top 5 or 6.

[Lost Highway]

"If there is no God then to be anything less than totally hedonistic makes no sense."

How silly!

I guess to me it seems that if there is nothing after this life then who cares wether one does right or wrong? What motivates you to want to do right even when you know you could totally get away with wrong and you would never get caught? (Again, I am seriously curious)

[MineralMan]

"You are correct with regard to SOME Protestant denominations, but not all. "

Or you can start your own denomination. What the heck? You could call your church the First Church of Jesus Christ the Healer and get started tomorrow. Rent a space, put up a sign, and start preaching.

As far as the government's concerned, your church would be as valid as the Roman Catholic Church. You'd get the same tax benefits, and the same protection under the law.

Religion's a funny thing. There are as many sects of Christianity almost as there are Christians. Every week, someone splinters off from some denomination and starts a new one. That's why we have thousands of different denomincations and sects. Each thinks it has a lock on what the Bible means.

More power to 'em, I say. If I weren't an atheist, I'd probably start a church myself. I'm a pretty good public speaker, and I'll bet I could have 100 in my congregation within a year, just by saying stuff they wanted to hear.

[lugsoul]

From your link:

"Startling discoveries related by Dr. D. James Kennedy prove that God created the Zodiac! Discover God’s original plan for the Zodiac – “the Gospel in the Stars”

[MineralMan]

"I guess to me it seems that if there is nothing after this life then who cares wether one does right or wrong? What motivates you to want to do right even when you know you could totally get away with wrong and you would never get caught? (Again, I am seriously curious)"

But why would I do that. I grew up in the same society you did. I learned manners and right and wrong from my mom and dad, just like you did. They were great examples, and both are atheists. My dad is one of the most respected men in the small town he lives in. My mom is known to everyone there as a kind, generous woman who will volunteer for anything that is a good cause.

Why would I do anything wrong? I own my own business, which I operate on the principles that make businesses successful, meaning good value and excellent customer service. I'm married. I volunteer in my community. I donate to the charities of my choice.

As far as I know, I have never broken a single law. I don't even speed in my car. I pay my taxes, on time, every time.

Why? Because it is the right thing to do. I don't need some threatening deity offering to send me to Hell to behave myself. I'm amazed that anyone does.

[wardaddy]

Why go investigate the Fed judge, I'm quite happy to rest on the laurels of knowing full well that those you share views with on this matter and who are carrying the legal water are serious political and cultural enemies of mine and anyone else who understands the concept of our headlong cultural decline...and yes now you have definitely entered the top echelon and are gaining on sinkspur..

[wardaddy]

You're cherry picking.

If God did not create the Constellations then who did?

I perused it enough to see that he is drawing from a body of Luther-ian and post Luther-ian writings but must CONFESS...

...that I am ignorant of all the nuances in his book and sermons on the matter other than to be aware that is in a dispute with another religious org.

I do know that from seeing him on TV that I sure agree with his political and cultural bent...I have no doubt of that.

I thought you didn't care about associations and were simply aligning yourself with the infallible Fed judge.

[lugsoul]

Your implication is that anyone who doesn't agree with Moore, and with you, is on the side of AU. That's not true of me. It is definitely not true of Carnes. The ACLU freaked out completely when he was appointed to the Federal bench - they even let go a press release lamenting the horrible rightward lurch of the 11th Circuit.

The point is that there is a very legitimate CONSERVATIVE view that Moore is way off base on this one.