Posted on 08/13/2003 9:02:05 PM PDT by nwrep
2 hours, 55 minutes ago
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By RAMOLA TALWAR BADAM, Associated Press Writer
BOMBAY, India - U.S. and Indian scientists said Wednesday they have discovered a new carnivorous dinosaur species in India after finding bones in the western part of the country.
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The new dinosaur species was named Rajasaurus narmadensis, or "Regal reptile from the Narmada," after the Narmada River region where the bones were found.
The dinosaurs were between 25-30 feet long, had a horn above their skulls, were relatively heavy and walked on two legs, scientists said. They preyed on long-necked herbivorous dinosaurs on the Indian subcontinent during the Cretaceous Period at the end of the dinosaur age, 65 million years ago.
"It's fabulous to be able to see this dinosaur which lived as the age of dinosaurs came to a close," said Paul Sereno, a paleontologist at the University of Chicago. "It was a significant predator that was related to species on continental Africa, Madagascar and South America."
Working with Indian scientists, Sereno and paleontologist Jeff Wilson of the University of Michigan reconstructed the dinosaur skull in a project funded partly by the National Geographic (news - web sites) Society.
A model of the assembled skull was presented Wednesday by the American scientists to their counterparts from Punjab University in northern India and the Geological Survey of India during a Bombay news conference.
Scientists said they hope the discovery will help explain the extinction of the dinosaurs and the shifting of the continents how India separated from Africa, Madagascar, Australia and Antarctica and collided with Asia.
The dinosaur bones were discovered during the past 18 years by Indian scientists Suresh Srivastava of the Geological Survey of India and Ashok Sahni, a paleontologist at Punjab University.
When the bones were examined, "we realized we had a partial skeleton of an undiscovered species," Sereno said.
The scientists said they believe the Rajasaurus roamed the Southern Hemisphere land masses of present-day Madagascar, Africa and South America.
"People don't realize dinosaurs are the only large-bodied animal that lived, evolved and died at a time when all continents were united," Sereno said.
The cause of the dinosaurs' extinction is still debated by scientists. The Rajasaurus discovery may provide crucial clues, Sereno said.
India has seen quite a few paleontological discoveries recently.
In 1997, villagers discovered about 300 fossilized dinosaur eggs in Pisdura, 440 miles northeast of Bombay, that Indian scientists said were laid by four-legged, long-necked vegetarian creatures.
Indian scientists said the dinosaur embryos in the eggs may have suffocated during volcanic eruptions.
Indeed, if an Enochian fragment is found and dated to 500 B.C. or earlier - I'll give you a heads up!
I have not yet looked for information on physical dating (e.g. carbon dating) on the parchments or the containers, but that's my next step.
I realize that the contextual points hold no sway to your view. Nevertheless, to me, it is significant that the manuscript from which the Qumran copies were made does not speak of Moses, the law or related Jewish traditions as being in existence, though it originated in Judea and that would be second nature to the residents.
As one of your sources said, it's not all that remarkable. If you were going to write something purportedly by a pre-Flood author, you would of course omit things that happened later. It's easy to leave things out. More significant are those things that are included in Enoch. And looking at them, there is nothing remarkably prophetic. Unless, as you say, a fragment can be decisively dated to a time that would make such writings miraculous indeed. But so far, I see no need to leap to unwarranted conclusions. I'm always open-minded to solid evidence, however. Keep me advised if something turns up.
Using your standard of measure, thus far the eyebrow-raiser would be Enoch fragment 4Q204 which appears to be carbon dated about 180 B.C.
I'm searching for more information, but the anamoly is that orbits were not proposed by the Greeks until 150 B.C. coupled with the fact that the Enoch manuscript is a copy from a source of unknown antiquity.
Finally, there are fragments just now being made available for carbon dating - so more questions may arise.
(That's a paraphrase of what I've found thus far; I will try to find quality links and excerpts to back it up.)
"Our new web site is up and running," writes Marc D. Hauser of Harvard's Primate Cognitive Neuroscience Laboratory. "We are interested in understanding people's moral intuitions. The web site, includes background information and importantly, The Moral Sense Test. I would very much appreciate it if you would not only take the test, but also spread the word to your friends and colleagues, of all ages. We are particularly interested in getting cross-cultural data as well as developmental information, so even young children who can read would be terrifically helpful. The more the word spreads, the better for us. Thanks a lot for your help. Marc"
[From the MST Website:] "The Moral Sense Test is a Web-based study into the nature of moral intuitions. How do humans, throughout the world, decide what is right and wrong? To answer this question, we have designed a series of moral dilemmas designed to probe the psychological mechanisms underlying our ethical judgments. By putting these questions on the Web, we hope to gain insight into the similarities and differences between the moral intuitions of people of different ages, from different cultures, with different educational backgrounds and religious beliefs, involved in different occupations and exposed to very different circumstances. Participation in the study is easy, quick and completely confidential.
"About the Moral Sense Test: Nothing captures human attention more than a moral dilemma. Whether we are soap opera fanatics or not, we cant help sticking our noses in other peoples affairs, pronouncing our views on right and wrong, permissible and impermissible, justified or not. For hundreds of years, scholars have argued that our moral judgments arise from rational, conscious, voluntary, reflective deliberations about what ought to be. This perspective has generated the further belief that our moral psychology is a slowly developing capacity, founded entirely on experience and education, and subject to considerable variation across cultures. With the exception of a few trivial examples, one cultures right is anothers wrong. We believe this hyper rational, culturally-specific view is no longer tenable. The MST has been designed to show why and offer an alternative. Most of our moral intuitions are unconscious, involuntary, and universal, developing in each child despite formal education. When humans, from the hunter-gathers of the Rift Valley to the billionaire dot-com-ers of the Silicon Valley generate moral intuitions they are like reflexes, something that happens to us without our being aware of how or even why. We call this capacity our moral faculty. Our aim is to use data from the MST, as well as other experiments, to explain what it is, how it evolved, and how it develops in our species, creating individuals with moral responsibilities and concerns about human welfare. The MST has been designed for all humans who are curious about that puzzling little word ought about the principles that make one action right and another wrong, and why we feel elated about the former and guilty about the latter.
"As in every modernly held view, there are significant historical antecedents. The origins of our own perspective date back at least 300 years to the philosopher David Hume and more recently, to the political philosopher John Rawls. But unlike these prescient thinkers, we can now validate the intuitions with significant scientific evidence. Over the past twenty years, there has been growing evidence for a universally shared moral faculty based on findings in evolutionary biology, cognitive psychology, anthropology, economics, linguistics, and neurobiology. This evidence has created a powerful movement directed at the core aspects of human nature. It is a movement that has the power to reshape our lives by uncovering the deep structure of our moral intuitions and showing how they can either support or conflict with our conscious, often legally supported decisions.
"You have the opportunity to participate in the Moral Sense Test right now. The test only takes about 10 minutes, and your responses are completely confidential. For more information, read our our privacy statement.
"This research is sponsored by the Primate Cognitive Neuroscience Laboratory, which is part of the Psychology Department at Harvard University."
A thousand points of light. A city on a hill!
Yeah! A city on a hill! With women. And money. And pretty trinkets.
I'll rape, you pillage. We'll get somebody else to do the burning.
Again, the context is that the Greeks proposed orbits at 150 B.C. and the Qumran text is a copy in Aramaic from an orginal of unknown antiquity but seemingly originating from Judea.
I'm pinging others who may be following the discussion and thus, might want to check out the link.
With regard to Enoch falling out of favor, I pulled the following excerpt from this link a few years back:
The theme of the Book of Enoch dealing with the nature and deeds of the fallen angels so infuriated the later Church fathers that one, Filastrius, actually condemned it openly as heresy (Filastrius, Liber de Haeresibus, no. 108). Nor did the rabbis deign to give credence to the books teaching about angels. Rabbi Simeon ben Jochai in the second century A.D. pronounced a curse upon those who believed it (Delitzsch, p. 223).
So the book was denounced, banned, cursed, no doubt burned and shreddedand last but not least, lost (and conveniently forgotten) for a thousand years. But with an uncanny persistence, the Book of Enoch found its way back into circulation two centuries ago.
In 1773, rumors of a surviving copy of the book drew Scottish explorer James Bruce to distant Ethiopia. True to hearsay, the Book of Enoch had been preserved by the Ethiopic church, which put it right alongside the other books of the Bible
Though it was once believed to be post-Christian (the similarities to Christian terminology and teaching are striking), recent discoveries of copies of the book among the Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran prove that the book was in existence before the time of Jesus Christ. But the date of the original writing upon which the second century B.C. Qumran copies were based is shrouded in obscurity. It is, in a word, old
There is abundant proof that Christ approved of the Book of Enoch. Over a hundred phrases in the New Testament find precedents in the Book of Enoch.
Another remarkable bit of evidence for the early Christians acceptance of the Book of Enoch was for many years buried under the King James Bibles mistranslation of Luke 9:35, describing the transfiguration of Christ: "And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him." Apparently the translator here wished to make this verse agree with a similar verse in Matthew and Mark. But Lukes verse in the original Greek reads: "This is my Son, the Elect One (from the Greek ho eklelegmenos, lit., "the elect one"): hear him."
The "Elect One" is a most significant term (found fourteen times) in the Book of Enoch. If the book was indeed known to the apostles of Christ, with its abundant descriptions of the Elect One who should "sit upon the throne of glory" and the Elect One who should "dwell in the midst of them," then the great scriptural authenticity is accorded to the Book of Enoch when the "voice out of the cloud" tells the apostles, "This is my Son, the Elect One"the one promised in the Book of Enoch.
The Book of Jude tells us in vs. 14 that "Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied " Jude also, in vs. 15, makes a direct reference to the Book of Enoch (2:1), where he writes, "to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly "
Many of the early church fathers also supported the Enochian writings. Justin Martyr ascribed all evil to demons whom he alleged to be the offspring of the angels who fell through lust for women (from the Ibid.)directly referencing the Enochian writings.
Athenagoras, writing in his work called Legatio in about 170 A.D., regards Enoch as a true prophet. He describes the angels which "violated both their own nature and their office." In his writings, he goes into detail about the nature of fallen angels and the cause of their fall, which comes directly from the Enochian writings.
Many other church fathers: Tatian (110-172); Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons (115-185); Clement of Alexandria (150-220); Tertullian (160-230); Origen (186-255); Lactantius (260-330); in addition to: Methodius of Philippi, Minucius Felix, Commodianus, and Ambrose of Milanalsoalso approved of and supported the Enochian writings
One by one the arguments against the Book of Enoch fade away. The day may soon arrive when the final complaints about the Book of Enochs lack of historicity and "late date" are also silenced by new evidence of the books real antiquity.
Also, that same website (my only source of info at the moment) says he "lived in Alexandria (288-277 BC), where he made a series of astronomical observations." Also "He was the chief exponent of the heliocentric system." So it may not have been his original idea, but perhaps something that was being discussed in Alexandria while he was there. This is not an unreasonable notion, and it would put the first mention of the heliocentric system back a bit, and therefore Enoch seems less remarkable. Anyway, carbon-dating of the Enoch manuscript will be good evidence of something, but (unless it's wildly ancient) it would not necessarily make it certain that Enoch anticipated something that he couldn't possibly have known or heard at the time he wrote. We shall see.
Aetiocetus.
When I first ran into Aristarchus and found the date 150 BC, his name was mentioned in conjunction with the first assertion of heliocentricity. The link provided by Right Wing Professor, from a NASA site, confirms the 150 BC date but attributes it to Ptolemy.
It seems to me that Aristarchus' assertions were like a minority report in the Greek science community until 150 B.C.
Or to sum it up, if Enoch was being modified from time-to-time to include all the latest science theories out of Greece it may have been the first scientific journal (LOL!) That tickled me so much, I had to ping Right Wing Professor, too.
But I truly doubt that is the case. Qumran was a library (though it did have a commercial records area) - and the Jewish tradition was to copy religious texts with great precision, so I doubt it was a science journal.
Darwin's theory of evolution doesn't even attempt to define "what is life". Indeed, it is a question of great importance and interest - but mostly to physicists, philosophers and theologians:
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