Vote On Gay Bishop Delayed; Allegations Surface

nbc4.com, Minneapolis ^ | August 4, 2003

[Pan_Yans Wife]

The vote on confirming a gay Episcopal bishop was postponed Monday in light of allegations of pornography and inappropriate conduct, a church spokesman said.

A vote was expected Monday in Minneapolis that could make a New Hampshire clergyman, the Rev. Gene Robinson, the church's first openly gay elected bishop.

The spokesman said the postponement came after allegations emerged involving "touching" and "pornography." He declined to elaborate.

The church's House of Deputies has voted overwhelmingly to approve Robinson, who faces a final vote in the House of Bishops.

Robinson says Sunday's results make him feel "very peaceful on the inside" and "very humbled."

But the American Anglican Council, which represents conservative bishops and parishes, said it is "deeply grieved" by the results.

Robinson, a 56-year-old divorced father of two, has lived with his partner, Mark Andrew, for 13 years.

Bishops who believe gay sex is a sin say the approval of Robinson will weaken and divide the denomination and spark a bitter fight over parish property and funds.

But liberals say the threat has been exaggerated and note that many conservatives had pledged to break ties before over issues such as ordaining women but did not follow through.

[MineralMan]

"Oh, I just noticed your tagline. I guess you won't bother seeing Mel Gibson's "The Passion"."

Why would you guess that? Religion has played an enormous part in history. I plan on seeing the film on opening day, as I have done with many films featuring religious themes.

Do not mistake atheism for ignorance. Most atheists, you will find, have a very firm grounding in various religions. It's a mistake to believe that an atheist does not know your religion's scriptures.

The Passion of Christ is a theme that has been explored in art for hundreds of years. How could someone interested in the effects of religion on society fail to see this film?

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Going by scripture then, the Bishop is guilty of adultery, because he divorced his wife. I am not certain what the church's position is on divorce and remarriage. But, he didn't remarry. He is in a homosexual relationship with a man he cohabitates with.

If open adultery is condoned, then what is forbidden?

[MineralMan]

"I have a feeling you've got a history you aren't sharing, something that hurts like hell and isn't easy to explain, either..."

I have a lot of history I don't share here, but none of it has to do with my atheism. I've made no secret of how I came to atheism in other threads. It has nothing to do with pain at all, but rather with study and thought.

You're welcome to your beliefs, and I will not attempt to discourage you in them. However, I will point out that Jesus has not returned in the allotted time set out in the Bible. If you need a reference for that, I will be happy to provide it.

You believe in your religion, and that's fine. Others have different beliefs. Christianity is the religion of less than 1/3 of the world's population. You believe your religion to be the correct one. Others feel differently. Myself, I reject them all as superstitious claptrap.

[Archie Bunker on steroids]

The Episcopal church is responsible for these allegations. They did the math and realized the cost benefit would be in the red. They did, however, get many PC points for their efforts.

The spin is what I'm interested in. The Press releases make it seem like evil conservative groups are trying to derail this nice innocent man.

Top of the hour news had a lady from some dyke organization who was in tears about what was going on. The reporter even repeated how this poor woman was in tears.

History will show that the hateful conservative homophobes did this...even though they did it to themselves.

[journey7873]

Do you believe in a Creator?

[dandelion]

Back to the interesting stuff:the "Groundrules from Outright from 2000. The most notable rules address the issues of confidentiality and relationships.

"Respect Confidentiality - who attends and what is said at a meeting or drop-in stays at the meeting or drop-in, not to be discussed outside or at another meeting or drop-in. The only exceptions are in cases where someone is at risk of suicide, homicide or child-abuse/neglect.

Feelings are 100% OK - We are not here to tell anyone what they should or should not feel. Feelings are non-negotiable.

Use of "I" Statements - We encourage people to use "I" statements when sharing thoughts, opinions , and ideas. The use of "I" statements creates a non-judgmental environment. Examples of "I" statements are "I think..", "I feel.." and "I believe...".

Respect Boundaries - Many of us have certain issues that we feel unsafe or uncomfortable discussing. That's OK. We should take necessary steps to ensure that we feel safe, even if that means leaving, or moving to another part of the space.

Respect Relationships - Many of us have multi-faceted relationships with other people at Outright.  In some cases, in may be inappropriate to share details of those relationships when other parties are present. We ask that people try to be sensitive to this. We ask that people avoid gossiping, dishing, and spreading rumors.

Respect Silence - Just because we're not speaking doesn't necessarily mean we're not communicating. We try to be sure that a person is finished sharing before going on to the next person. We ask that no side conversation occur when others are sharing.

Respect Diversity - Outright is made up of people of different ages, races, gender-identities, sexual orientations, classes, political affiliations, abilities, religious or spiritual beliefs, etc. We are HIV+, HIV- and HIV unsure, or untested. We encourage everyone to avoid making assumptions about anyone, and to respect our diversity.

No Judgments, Blame, Shame or Guilt - We come to Outright to get away from these things. We work at keeping our meetings free of them.

No Violence, Alcohol or Drugs - Some of us may be recovering from the effects of drugs, alcohol, and violence in our lives. We respect their needs."

[MineralMan]

"Do you believe in a Creator?"

As you see in my tagline, I am an atheist. I do not believe that any deities or other supernatural entities of any sort exist. Therefore, in the sense you mean, I do not believe that a "Creator" exists. Thank you for asking.

[beelzepug]

According to David Virtue, a very conservative Episcopalian who has a website called "Virtuousity" and who is covering the convention in depth from a conservative viewpoint, the average Episcopalian congregation in the U.S. is 37 people. I'm not sure if that refers to membership or average Sunday attendance; the latter sounds about right. My parish was around 80 (between two services) when I finally left about six months ago, might be fewer now. Hard to keep the doors open like this.

[journey7873]

So, it's the big bang theory for you?

[BlessedByLiberty]

Perhaps this will clarify my point - I believe the agenda here is to cause chaos and destroy institutions which make up the fabric of society, especially (and without reservation to denomination or sect) the church.

I understand how choosing church leadership works, but that isn't the ultimate goal of this agenda driven movement. The total and absolute destruction of everyone and anything which demands people take personal responsibility for their own actions, that people accept established standards or norms in a society is the point of the "acceptance-tolerance" movement.

One need look no further than the Boy Scouts for proof of this thesis. Winning in the Supreme Court still does not protect the Boy Scouts from this scurge against established societal norms. They are still hounded by political activists and "gay-rights" leaders demanding they not receive funding.

My point is that Baptists, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, everyone, including atheists will be forced to accept this lifestyle or else face more intolerant "tolerance" laws and lawsuits.

[MineralMan]

"So, it's the big bang theory for you?"

How does that follow? Not believing in deities does not necessarily mean that one accepts any particular cosmological theory.

So far, the math behind the big bang theory seems fairly sound. It's still being explored, however.

In reality, what happened many billions of years ago is of little interest to me, except as an odd bit of information. I am involved with the world as it is today, not as it was at the time of the universe's formation.

You are thinking narrowly here and apparently have a mistaken impression of what an atheist is. Atheism is not a church. Atheists do not necessarily share any points of view other than a disbelief in deities and other supernatural entities. Past that point, there's nothing particular in common among them.

But, this is way off-topic for this thread. If you'd like to begin some sort of thread on atheism, I'll be happy to participate, but it will probably end up in the Chat area, since it has nothing to do with the news.

[skeeter]

If you need a reference for that, I will be happy to provide it.

Please do.

[My2Cents]

You let me know when the fight starts. I wouldn't want to miss it.

Somehow I think you're going to be in the thick of it.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

The spin is what I'm interested in. The Press releases make it seem like evil conservative groups are trying to derail this nice innocent man.

Matt Lauer congratulated the Reverend this morning, on the Today Show.

I suspect he thought it was a foregone conclusion that the vote would be in the Reverend's favor, today.

It should come as no surprise that the media is on the Reverend's side. Pushing the homosexual agenda, for diversity's sake is all they care about. They couldn't begin to understand that a church's foundation is built upon a set of beliefs.

[BlessedByLiberty]

If open adultery is condoned, then what is forbidden?

That is the material point here: in this agenda driven movement, nothing should be forbidden, noone should ever be punished, there should be no norms, no standards by which society functions or judges behavior, there are no consequences for actions.

There are relatively few objections liberals have toward an anything goes society. They object to: conservatives, standards, judgements, and true freedom of speech - for to disagree with them means you want to practice intolerance and stifle their words of wisdom.

[francisr]

you are correct - the site and group that he "proudly" founded is a "tool" for homosexuals and "questioning teens" to meet and "explore"
They pulled all of their links today

[cherry]

"The Catholic Church has been smeared by the homo-priests in their ranks."

there-in is the problem....

homosexual priests who aren't pedophiles are in no position to be throwing regular pedophiles out of the church...

"if you don't tell on me, I won't tell on you."

but I also believe that the line between pedophile priests and homsexual priests is a blurred one....

[Bluntpoint]

My goodness! You even trash the religion of our very own Apu Nahasapeemapetilon!

Do you not believe in the "squishee" either?

[utahagen]

I concur. Although Robinson's supporters probably will allege that these allegations are a Hail Mary pass from the conservatives, I think the core church bureaucrats are the ones who leaked these allegations. I think that many orthodox Anglicans really, really will walk if Robinson is confirmed. The ECUSA honchos probably realize this is so, that this issue will be the straw that broke the camel's back, and they can't handle the fallout.

[Archie Bunker on steroids]

They may have planned this all along...knowing that the congregations were not ready. They've got more programming to do.

The ELCA branch of the Lutheran Church formed in 1988, and in my opinion, the focus of the organizers was to normalize queerness through the church not to worship.

They made several attempts in the early days to float same sex blessings, and gay ordination trial balloons. I guess they figured they didn't want to divide the church and get the smaller half. They won't give up and are in the middle of a long sexuality study.

They planned this outcome, believing it would garner sympathy support from the members and paint conservatives as hateful extrmeists. Stand by for more of the gay blitzkrieg...coming to a church near you.