Vote On Gay Bishop Delayed; Allegations Surface

nbc4.com, Minneapolis ^ | August 4, 2003

[Pan_Yans Wife]

The vote on confirming a gay Episcopal bishop was postponed Monday in light of allegations of pornography and inappropriate conduct, a church spokesman said.

A vote was expected Monday in Minneapolis that could make a New Hampshire clergyman, the Rev. Gene Robinson, the church's first openly gay elected bishop.

The spokesman said the postponement came after allegations emerged involving "touching" and "pornography." He declined to elaborate.

The church's House of Deputies has voted overwhelmingly to approve Robinson, who faces a final vote in the House of Bishops.

Robinson says Sunday's results make him feel "very peaceful on the inside" and "very humbled."

But the American Anglican Council, which represents conservative bishops and parishes, said it is "deeply grieved" by the results.

Robinson, a 56-year-old divorced father of two, has lived with his partner, Mark Andrew, for 13 years.

Bishops who believe gay sex is a sin say the approval of Robinson will weaken and divide the denomination and spark a bitter fight over parish property and funds.

But liberals say the threat has been exaggerated and note that many conservatives had pledged to break ties before over issues such as ordaining women but did not follow through.

[BnBlFlag]

The Episcopal Church has had huge defections since the Liberal takeover. When the country was founded, they were probably the largest denomination.
The first losses occured when the Methodists and Baptists out hustled them in Evangelizing the people moving west. Now we are reduced to this.
I've held out long enough. Now that our Parish's beloved conservative Republican Pastor has retired, I'm looking at a more conservative Church. Maybe Mo. Synod Lutheran. I come from the Evangelical Wing, so Catholicism is not an option. Any suggestions?

[Jmouse007]

MineralMan, thanks for verifying scripture! God's Word says:

3Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,

4and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.”

5For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,

6through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.

7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2Peter 3:3-9

MineralMan, isn't it exciting to know that with your mocking you are directly involved in fulfilling prophecy made through the apostle Peter between 64 and 68 A.D.! (The writing of 2 Peter may be conservatively placed some time after the writing of 1 Peter and before Peter’s death, between A.D. 64 and 68.

That was approximately 1939 years ago!

Thanks and Maranatha, the Lord is Coming, sooner than people want to believe; your living proof :o)

[Pan_Yans Wife]

I am a parent. And I can verify that in no way would it be possible for me to create the miracle that is my child, without divine intervention.

[longtermmemmory]

Greek Orthodox? (most churches do their services in english in the USA)

[longtermmemmory]

http://www.waybackmachine.org

this website stores all web pages for posterity.

go there and check out the aqusations. Even if they pulled it, it should still be present there.


They can run, but they perv's can't hide.

[Fifth Business]

There is another Anglican church in America that has full membership in the Anglican communion. It's called the Anglican Mission in America, and it has several churches in Texas. It is orthodox and evangelical, since it is a mission of the Anglican Church in Africa and Asia. You can use their church locator from this page: http://64.118.70.157/amia/meetamia_sub.cfm?id=2

Also, there are several smaller Episcopal and Anglican denominations which are not in full membership with the Anglican communion, such as the Reformed Episcopal Church and the Anglican Province of America. Each of these denominations have church/parish locators on their site.

[SkyPilot]

But liberals say the threat has been exaggerated and note that many conservatives had pledged to break ties before over issues such as ordaining women but did not follow through.

See what happens when you give Czech territory to Hitler?

[Fee]

Check First Timothy, Chapter 3, which lists the qualifications for head of church. Ministers must be "blameless" (i.e beyond reproach) and "husband of one wife" (original Greek text is explicit, men only). Ministers have to be leaders by example. Hard to teach a young person to shun the gay lifestyle if you are a former gay person. Reason, the young person can say you tried it and somehow you found your way back to straight. I am young, let me experiment and if God is right, I will make it back just like you did. The same problem can arise as the minister is trying to urge a couple not to divorce and give their marriage a chance, hard to do it if he was divorced. I know it sounds pretty tough, but a minister serves a very important position in the church. The Catholic Church is suffering because they became emeshed in worldly standards. Power political members of their church can support abortion, divorce, philander and even be gay, and they are accomodated because strict enforcement of their doctrine would lead to problems with the real world. Standards have been compromised and have slid to the point that the fear of the world was more prominent than prosecuting priests who molest alter boys. I think one of the problems with the US Catholic Church is their Seminaries allow "former" gay men to become priests in order to make up their priest shortages. They compromised on scripture to deal with real world problems. Consequences is homosexual child molestation (Note most of the offense involves men on young teenage boys. If celibacy was causing sexual tension, most of the offense would have been men attacking young women). Finally, when I was young I thought like you. Why follow the scripture strictly? The church must be flexible so they can survive. As I get older, I find that the scripture has much wisdom. In depth study of the commentaries you will find that they were written for a purpose. Straying from them will cause problems. The Church is not a building and infrastucture, it is about the spiritual relationship with God thru faith, obedience and prayer. If we compromise scripture for membership and larger buildings, we will end up like Western Europe. They have the most beautiful cathedrals in Christiandom, but they are filled with tourists on weekdays and empty on Sunday.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

many conservatives had pledged to break ties before over issues such as ordaining women but did not follow through.

I agree. It takes awhile to get the ball rolling, and then, given the right conditions, it turns into an avalanche!

[Fee]

Check First Timothy, Chapter 3, which lists the qualifications for head of church. Ministers must be "blameless" (i.e beyond reproach) and "husband of one wife" (original Greek text is explicit, men only). Ministers have to be leaders by example. Hard to teach a young person to shun the gay lifestyle if you are a former gay person. Reason, the young person can say you tried it and somehow you found your way back to straight. I am young, let me experiment and if God is right, I will make it back just like you did. The same problem can arise as the minister is trying to urge a couple not to divorce and give their marriage a chance, hard to do it if he was divorced. I know it sounds pretty tough, but a minister serves a very important position in the church. The Catholic Church is suffering because they became emeshed in worldly standards. Power political members of their church can support abortion, divorce, philander and even be gay, and they are accomodated because strict enforcement of their doctrine would lead to problems with the real world. Standards have been compromised and have slid to the point that the fear of the world was more prominent than prosecuting priests who molest alter boys. I think one of the problems with the US Catholic Church is their Seminaries allow "former" gay men to become priests in order to make up their priest shortages. They compromised on scripture to deal with real world problems. Consequences is homosexual child molestation (Note most of the offense involves men on young teenage boys. If celibacy was causing sexual tension, most of the offense would have been men attacking young women). Finally, when I was young I thought like you. Why follow the scripture strictly? The church must be flexible so they can survive. As I get older, I find that the scripture has much wisdom. In depth study of the commentaries you will find that they were written for a purpose. Straying from them will cause problems. The Church is not a building and infrastucture, it is about the spiritual relationship with God thru faith, obedience and prayer. If we compromise scripture for membership and larger buildings, we will end up like Western Europe. They have the most beautiful cathedrals in Christiandom, but they are filled with tourists on weekdays and empty on Sunday.

[NotJustAnotherPrettyFace]

Lots of stats here:

The Largest Episcopal Churches in the U.S.A.

Excerpt:

The 1998 edition reported 208. The 1999 edition reported 228. The 2002 edition below reported 271. I.e., in the five years 1997-1992 the number of congregations with 1,000+ members increased by 23%. During the same five years, the total number of communicants in the Episcopal Church increased from 1,584,760 to 1,857,843, or only 17%. Large congregations are growing at a faster rate than others.

Twenty-three percent of all Episcopalians are members of churches with 1,000 or more communicants, yet those 271 congregations represent only 3.7% of all Episcopal churches.

The 7,347 congregations of ECUSA average 252 confirmed communicants each.

Caveat: The Episcopal Church Annual is clearly wrong with regard to a few specific "big" congregations. E.g., for several years, the Annual has shown Trinity in Boston as under 100; yet Trinity's website, http://www.trinitychurchboston.org/ states that Trinity has over 2,500 members, and parochial report revealed an average attendance of 1,440. I cannot undertake to naysay the Annual -- my sole source regarding size -- but clearly some congregations are not communicating clearly when they file their parochial reports on which the Annual bases its data.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Thank you.

[dandelion]

At least you knew what your parents believed. My Mother was a physicist, and my Father was an aero-space engineer, and while both of them had very strong personal beliefs, they believed that the ability to think for oneself was paramount. So, instead of comforting spiritual stories for children, we were regaled with:

"What if we are an atom on God's hand, and God is unknowing of us, and God washes his hands?"

OR

"Are we figments of someone's imagination, does that make that someone God? And if He Doesn't believe in us any more, will we cease to exist?" (This one may be reversed with us as God and God as us)...

OR

"What if we are just multi-dimensional beings, existing on simultaneous time planes of the universe, and the 'spirits' we encounter are just accidental juxtapositions of those planes?"

I can't tell you how many days I went to school all freaked out because my Mother wanted to play Quantum Philosophy with my head. Kinda like "New Math for the Eight-Year-Old Soul". In otherwords, no answers, but lots of base-eight questions in a base-ten world...

[dandelion]

At least you knew what your parents believed. My Mother was a physicist, and my Father was an aero-space engineer, and while both of them had very strong personal beliefs, they believed that the ability to think for oneself was paramount. So, instead of comforting spiritual stories for children, we were regaled with:

"What if we are an atom on God's hand, and God is unknowing of us, and God washes his hands?"

OR

"Are we figments of someone's imagination, does that make that someone God? And if He Doesn't believe in us any more, will we cease to exist?" (This one may be reversed with us as God and God as us)...

OR

"What if we are just multi-dimensional beings, existing on simultaneous time planes of the universe, and the 'spirits' we encounter are just accidental juxtapositions of those planes?"

I can't tell you how many days I went to school all freaked out because my Mother wanted to play Quantum Philosophy with my head. Kinda like "New Math for the Eight-Year-Old Soul". In otherwords, no answers, but lots of base-eight questions in a base-ten world...

[dandelion]

Now if only I could figure out why I'm posting double...

[wideawake]

I come from the Evangelical Wing, so Catholicism is not an option.

I am biased because I am a Roman Catholic. What I do know is that Evangelical Christians like Scott Hahn (author of Rome Sweet Home), Steve Ray (author of Crossing the Tiber) and Mark Shea (author of By What Authority) have all come to Catholicism through different paths and found nothing in the Church to dim or compromise their Evangelical spirit.

And I know they've definitely had a very positive effect on my relationship with Christ through their witness.

I'm not going to denigrate organizations like the Missouri Synod and I know that there are also more conservative factions of the Episcopal Church as well. I guess my advice is not to eliminate any of your options until you've examined them closely. It's a very big decision.

[Fury]

You can't have it both ways. My parents created me sometime around Halloween, 1944, when they had sexual intercourse. After a normal gestation of 9 months, I was born in July of 1945 at 2 A.M. on the 29th.

Your description, although factual (we will take your word for it! ;) ) seems a bit sterile. Creating life is not the same as making peanut butter cookies.

[MineralMan]

"I am a parent. And I can verify that in no way would it be possible for me to create the miracle that is my child, without divine intervention.
"

That's silly. Even a mouse makes babies in exactly the same way as humans do. No miracle there. It's how mammals reproduce.

[MineralMan]

"Your description, although factual (we will take your word for it! ;) ) seems a bit sterile. Creating life is not the same as making peanut butter cookies."

Of course it's not. Who'd eat such peanut butter cookies? Mammalian reproduction, however, isn't all that difficult. Mice do it. People do it. It works the same way, exactly, in all mammals.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

I don't equate the making of human life as being equal to creating a mouse. However, neither a mouse, nor a child, are born in the absense of God. In the making of a child, there is the soul that is formed. I don't believe animals are equal to humans, I don't believe they have souls.