Techies see jobs go overseas - Opposition to offshore outsourcing beginning to grow

San Francisco Chronicle ^ | 06/02/2003 | Carrie Kirby

[NCjim]

Daniel Soong waited in line at the dingy, low-ceilinged Employment Development Department in Pleasant Hill, hoping to find some clerical work or any kind of work at all.

At 30, this is not where the thin, neatly dressed computer programmer expected to be. Nor did he expect, after seven years in the technology industry, to have to move back into his parents' Pleasanton house.

"I would like to meet a girl and start a family, but that's not really possible unless you have a good job," he said.

Unlike many people who have lost their jobs during the economic slump, Soong does not hold out much hope that his career will get back on track when the economy picks up. He belongs to a growing contingent of technology professionals who believe that prospects for their field have permanently dimmed because companies are sending work overseas.

Soong and others like him are forming the beginning of an anti- offshoring movement. In California, Connecticut, New Jersey and Washington, groups of computer professionals are searching for ways -- from legislation to tax incentives -- to somehow slow the flow of high-paying jobs overseas.

[clamper1797]

Yeah maybe the tooth fairy will come with a winning lotto ticket

[dfwgator]

Programmers only spend about 10% of their total time actually programming, there is a lot more to the job than just slinging code. Good environments for coding involve having the programmers wearing several hats, gathering business requirements, doing upfront design and analysis, it is here where the value comes in, not in the ability to sling code in there. It is here where the American programmer shines over the offshore coders. In fact, if the company wishes to save money, they should can the business analysts and instead employ good programmers who also understand the business and have good soft skills. Over the long run, they will save a hell of a lot more money.

[Drango]

Programmers only spend about 10% of their total time actually programming

Yeah, well playing with themselves the other 90% of the time doesn't help productivity... sorry :-)

[SwordofTruth]

Very good analogy.

This is one problem that must be fixed and soon or America as we know it will be wiped out.

[Jorge]

Pardon me, but I have managed aircraft overhaul at a major airline, in the main base....

....What you say never happens happens all the time.

Perhaps you misunderstood what I said. I was talking about criminal behavior.

In the aircraft industry, anyone who knowingly signs off on inferior or negligent work that doesn't meet the called for standards and specifications...is liable under the law and can go to jail.

In the case of airline disasters anyone who is discovered to have knowingly approved of such work or materials goes to jail.

If as you say, you really work in this industry and are aware such gross violations, and also know of people being fired for refusing to sign off on faulty work (as you said)and you do nothing, then you are responsible and just as guilty of endangering thousands of peoples lives as well.

But then perhaps I misunderstood the degree of personal knowledge you claim to have of such things?

[hedgetrimmer]

NATIONAL REPUBLICAN PLATFORM, ADOPTED AT MINNEAPOLIS, MINN., JUNE 9, 1892

"We reaffirm the American doctrine of protection."

Protection is _not_ socialism
Protection is Constitutional.
Protection puts _Citizens_ and _Nation_ first.
Protection allows citizens to pursue happiness-- an obligation of government written into the Declaration of Independence.


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

America declared its independence from a destructive and totalitarian government 1776. Now America is losing its independence to foreign governments because of the duplicity of our own government and their development of trade policies that _reward_ off shore investment and punish investment in America.

The government is _not_ securing the rights of citizens by destroying the rules and expectations that corporations that benefit from the freedoms and protections of the US government, should also have some loyalty to the people it represents. National identity can be a good thing, especially when you identify with a country that was and could be again, the epitome of freedom.

[hedgetrimmer]

International economists all emphasize the advantages of efficiency, but many nations assign high priority to other goals-preserving families, communities, and cultures. Certainly, when our nation was taking off in the 18th and 19th centuries, George Washington and the leaders who followed him were very sensitive to defense considerations, to the need for a balanced economy so that we wouldn't be dependent on foreign markets to obtain goods or to sell them.

Actually, we did quite well before we discovered the gospel of free trade. In the 19th century, when America practiced protectionism and had high tariff barriers that averaged between 40% and 50% on dutiable goods, our economy outperformed that of Great Britain, which practiced unilateral free trade. Our growth rate was literally double that of theirs, and 60-70,000 British workers each year came to the United States for better working conditions.

In the 1840s, Britain removed the corn laws and opened its market to American exports. During that period, we were rapidly industrializing and essentially operating the way Japan, China, and the East Asian newly industrialized countries have in more recent times: that is, we feasted on an open market and enjoyed enormous export growth while our home market was closed to imports that might compete with domestic manufactures. As a consequence, we developed new technologies. We developed export-competitive, capital industries. By the turn of the 20th century, America's steel and machine industry was state-of-the-art, the best in the world, and quickly penetrating world markets and overcoming the inferior competition of Great Britain. We gained behind those high tariff barriers the advantage of large scale production, and we also learned how to produce quality goods at affordable prices.

In the 19th century, all the Republican leaders from Abraham Lincoln through and including Herbert Hoover, endorsed the protective tariff

http://www.sonic.net/~doretk/Issues/97-08%20AUG/freetrade.html

[SwankyC]

when Hillary is elected president, asking "who would vote for her?". these folks whose jobs are being gutted by these visa and offshoring practices, add them to the list of people pulling the lever for her.

Im not making the connection of Tech people losing their jobs(I havent yet) and then voting for Hillary. What is she gonna do for us?

I also believe that this country will cease to exist as #1 after she is elected. We will become socialist pacifists like France because her govt WILL succeed in controlling us through even more heavy taxation.

[Bellflower]

What about making a penalty for any company that goes off shore. You can go off shore but once a company leaves this country they are banned from selling their product back to us.

[harpseal]

What about making a penalty for any company that goes off shore. You can go off shore but once a company leaves this country they are banned from selling their product back to us.

I would not have a problem with taht in any way.

[harpseal]

First your position is that of arch liberal Jay Inslee. That is described in this story Outsourcing, visa curbs not in US interest: Congressman Secondly, your position is contray to the American national security interest for teh future based on the following thread COMMUNIST CHINESE PLA SEEKS A NEW LEAP FORWARD .

On other theads you have claimed ignorance of lawsuits about the H1B issue and yet on the same threads you have claimed to be an owner of Sun stock. yet Sun is the defendant in one such suit.

[hedgetrimmer]

One suggestiong is to tax international phone lines, so that business calls (like to service centers, and software groups) cost enough that it harmonizes the costs of doing business overseas with the cost of doing business here. Its not a tariff so the "free traders" can't yell protectionism. It is just a usage tax.

Funny what you will tolerate (I don't care for using taxes as a way to manipulate the market) but it may be the only solution to the politician's perfidy.

[harpseal]

Here is the text of the linked article above.

"Although he is generally deemed a moderate--if not liberal--cadre on political matters, President Hu Jintao issued a remarkably tough message on defense and armaments at a Chinese Communist Party (CCP) Politburo meeting in late May.

During this special Politburo "study session" on military matters, the president and party chief pointed out that China must "achieve a leap-forward style development in defense and army modernization." Hu hinted that much greater funding would be devoted to upgrading the arsenal of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) because, he said, economic progress "need to be safeguarded by a strong national defense."

Hu put the most emphasis on boosting the PLA's information technology (IT) and electronics capabilities. He called these capabilities "a major contributor to new transformations in the world's armies." The 60-year-old president, who is also one of three vice-chairmen of the Central Military Commission (CMC), vowed that "China will ceaselessly strengthen its national defense and military modernization."

What is behind the party and army leadership's redoubled zeal in beefing up PLA weaponry?

A key factor was the dazzling display of American firepower in the Iraqi theater. Even before the start of the war, Beijing had dispatched a considerable number of military and intelligence experts to the Middle East with the purpose of watching the Allied Forces in action from up close. Since early April, military academies have run marathon series of seminars on what the PLA could learn from American tactics and equipment. This was behind the Politburo's decision to--in the words of the official Xinhua news agency--"borrow from the experience of new military developments in the world."

The PLA's determination to bring its arsenal into the 21st century was also enhanced by the accident that struck the Ming Class Submarine No. 361 off the Bohai Sea in mid-April. All seventy crewmen on board were killed. Hu indicated immediately afterwards that the PLA must "draw the appropriate lesson" from the outdated fixtures and mechanical errors that were said to be responsible for the mishap.

In fact, a thorough study of ways and means to modernize China's fighting forces had begun soon after last November's 16th CCP Party Congress, which decided to give ex-president Jiang Zemin one more term as CMC Chairman. Over the past few months Jiang has stayed mostly in his power base of Shanghai, where he is putting the finishing touches to a package of reforms.

A military source in Beijing said the CMC is coming up with plans to streamline the PLA, as well as to modernize its doctrine and weaponry. The source said that the 2.4 million-strong PLA is to shed about 500,000 staff members beginning late this year. Most of the personnel to be laid off will come from infantry divisions. Also facing cuts are non-combat units such as academies, hospitals and engineering battalions.

Moreover, the command-and-control structure will be revamped, with unprecedented powers being placed in the CMC and its central-level command units. The source added that it was likely the seven military regions would be gradually dismantled over the coming year or two. For one thing, abolishing the Maoist institution of regional commands will curtail superfluous bureaucracies and staff--and prevent powerful regional commanders from building up local fiefdoms. Of more importance, centralizing decision making authority in the CMC will help build a better integrated command hierarchy. It is understood that the CMC has been modeling the structural changes partly along the lines of the U.S. joint operational command system.

In a speech delivered soon after the end of the Iraq War, Vice-Chief of the General Staff General Xiong Guangkai said a further reduction of military staff was necessary in order to achieve "hi-tech intensity" in the forces. Xiong, a veteran head of military intelligence, urged a much higher degree of coordination and synchronization among the PLA's disparate branches. He said that in addition to land, sea, and air forces, the PLA must better train divisions skilled in astronautics and IT--and that units in these five areas must aim for real-time integration.

In terms of equipment and weaponry, the PLA will continue its decade-old drive to boost firepower in areas ranging from missiles to jet fighters. However, the leitmotif of modernization for the early 21st century is vastly expanding IT and electronics capacity in all military units--as well as using IT and telecommunication wizardry to better integrate operations by different PLA divisions. As military theorist Jia Fengshan pointed out, the main lesson to be drawn from the U.S. blitzkrieg in Iraq was that "IT superiority determines battlefield superiority."

And the Chinese need to catch up fast. While most PLA units have yet to accomplish full-fledged mechanization, the generals are convinced that the forces could "leap-frog" to advanced standards in digitization and other IT-related goals. This was the rationale behind President Hu's goal of "a leap-forward style development" enunciated at last month's Politburo meeting. As the former chief of the General Staff, General Fu Quanyou, pointed out in a recent talk at the National Defense University, "we must speed up the pace of IT-related [military] construction based on high technology."

The leap-forward imperative was underscored by the Liberation Army Daily in a commentary late last month. "It would not do to follow other countries' [technological] development in a step by step fashion," the paper said. It added that it would be misguided to try to achieve full mechanization first before going after state-of-the-art standards in electronics and IT. This old path, the Daily said, would merely "widen the gap between the PLA and armies in advanced countries." It pointed out that mechanization and digitization could be achieved together.

Domestically, the new emphasis on fast-track PLA modernization means that more resources in civilian sectors will be devoted to military research and development (R&D). This dovetails with Chairman Mao's old teaching about the necessity to "integrate war-time and peace-time requirements." Expenditure on defense-related R&D carried out by civilian departments in areas including electronics and astronautics is not included in the published army budget. And it is thus difficult for the outside world to estimate the full extent of the financial outlay that the CCP leadership has earmarked for upgrading the PLA arsenal.

Aggressive defense modernization also has obvious foreign policy implications. Foremost is the fast-developing military relationship with Russia, China's major supplier of sophisticated weapons ranging from jet fighters to submarines. Talking about his visit to Russia at the end of May, President Hu said Beijing was committed to "assiduously raising the Sino-Russian strategic partnership of cooperation to new and higher levels." Apart from holding talks with his counterpart, Russian President Vladimir Putin, Hu also toured such hi-tech facilities as a Russian rocket manufacturer. The joint statement issued by Presidents Hu and Putin on May 27 referred to the imperative of further consolidating the two countries "strategic, cooperative partnership."

Because Hu's visit was not military in nature--and due also to the sensitivity of the issue of PLA modernization--neither the Hu entourage nor its hosts played up the progress in Sino-Russian military cooperation. However, the Hu-Putin communique cited the need to pursue closer ties in the following areas: "economy and trade, military technology, science and technology, energy, transport, nuclear energy, finance, aeronautics, astronautics, as well as information technology." Since most of the above items have a defense-related connotation, it is not difficult to gauge the extent to which the Chinese party and military leadership is looking to Moscow for help in the PLA's new leap forward.

Moreover, there were reports in Russia that Defense Minister General Cao Gangchuan was in Moscow at the time of the Hu visit to discuss military cooperation. It is significant that General Cao, a CMC vice-chairman with special responsibility for arms procurement, is the only member of the CCP Politburo to have been trained in the former Soviet Union.

According to the Russian news agency Interfax-AVN, Cao held discussions on military and technological cooperation with military units that included the state-owned Rosoboroneksport arms trading company. The agency quoted Konstantin Makienko, the deputy director of the Moscow-based Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies. He reportedly said that the PLA was particularly interested in areas that included upgrading the avionics of Su-27 and Su-30 jet fighters, and also in procuring anti-submarine missiles and ship-borne air defense missiles

[Poohbah]

At least in prision they would not have to worry about being homeless or starving.

Until they're released. And those programmers will have to figure out how to not get gang-raped in the shower.

That's of course if there is any one smart enough in India to catch them. LOL!

It will be American computer forensics experts with the FBI who will do the catching. And if your work can be safely outsourced to India to begin with, you're not good enough to avoid getting caught.

[harpseal]

Regarding Jay Inslee I reference Outsourcing, visa curbs not in US interest: Congressman . You are not being true to conservative values by standing up for these liberal big government programs that became entrenched under WJC. You have claimed to be an F14 pilot. You seem to think the F14 came from out of the blue when in fact it was designed by American engineers and built with American labor and technology. Had that same or better technology been available to those who wanted to flame your butt when you were flying you might not be here spouting off your liberal views.

Future members of our military will need every technological advantage they can get or there will be a lot of dead Americans. The civilian infrastructure of IT and engineering provides the education for those military equipment engineers. By encouraging actions which destroy the American IT infrastructure you are actively working to kill those future American Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Airmen by depriving them of technological superiority. that is certainly not a conservative value. Indian IT companies are heavy contributors to such wonderful conservatives as Hillary Clinton. My history seems to tell me Benedict Arnold was willing to give the plans of West Point to the British for money how is your support different than his since you are getting money from teh profits accruing to your investments from the giving away of American IT infrastructure?

[harpseal]

One suggestiong is to tax international phone lines, so that business calls (like to service centers, and software groups) cost enough that it harmonizes the costs of doing business overseas with the cost of doing business here. Its not a tariff so the "free traders" can't yell protectionism. It is just a usage tax.

I have no problem with this but it does not address the H1B and L1 visa problem nor does it address the free insurance for overseas investment from the US taxpayer.

[harpseal]

Please see my comments #112, 114, and 116 for replies to pukin dog. My first reaction to him when he said he was a vetran was that I wanted to ask which side. However I have since accepted his vetrans status but that status does not confer immunity from refuting his assertions and ideas.

[Democratic_Machiavelli]

What will be left are "service jobs". This includes fast food, housekeeping/janitorial, catering, electrical repair, etc. Anything that keeps the houses and parties of those with money going will be the career to get into.

Which is why I've decided to take night classes in hamburger flipping.

[hopespringseternal]

The large companies like IBM and AT&T have been hiring contract programming in third-world countries for at least two decades.

Yes, BUT! Having worked next to an outsourced project, what we got was crap.

Now upper management excels at producing and marketing crap, so the immediate impact is not felt. Our company has a graph of cost vs. return for their different locations. Going overseas is cheap, but you really do get what you pay for.

For many business, buggy, inaccurate software is ok and they will gladly pay less for it. But there will always be those who are willing to pay a premium for quality.

Just like everything else, once the boom is over the cream rises to the top and the dregs go to the bottom. If you are good, you will be able to program for a living. It is just that a Computer Science degree is no longer an automatic meal ticket.