Teachers earn more than editors & reporters

email ^ | Craig J. Cantoni

[hsmomx3]

The Summer 2003 edition of the education journal "Education Next" has statistics on teacher pay from the Bureau of Labor Statistics that match my own research. To quote: "Teachers earn more per hour than architects, civil engineers, mechanical engineers, statisticians, biological and life scientists, registered nurses, university-level foreign-language teachers, and editors and reporters." The statistics exclude benefits, which are far richer for teachers than for private-sector employees.

On a related note, the web site of a private citizen has great graphs and stats on government spending. One graph shows how education productivity has declined by 70 percent over the last 40 years, based on the ratio of SAT scores to inflation-adjusted per-pupil spending. The graph can be found at:

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/education.htm

Regards,

Craig J. Cantoni

Capstone Consulting Group

480-661-8175

Fax 480-661-8155

[Diva Betsy Ross]

Youa re a fool. Please tell me you are not in charge of children's education in any way.
You need reading comp classes. It was not a try... Re -read, and try to keep up this time.

[Clara Lou]

It won't help. It would rather bitch. You know the type.
Yes, you're right. I'm afraid that I already wasted another post on it. I will sign off for the evening so that I don't give in to the urge to post to it again. Good evening!

[Diva Betsy Ross]

Yes, A whole bunch of government "teachers" .

[Dianna]

It won't help. It would rather bitch. You know the type.

I've been a stay at home mom for 10 years. I'm going into to teaching BECAUSE there are problems. I read thread of thread of complaints and decided that we need people who give a damn, people who think things can change.

I might find out nothing can be done, but I'm willing to put myself on the line. Nothing will change if we sit here in our cozy little houses and bitch at each other.

[FLAMING DEATH]

I see a lot of people taking the easy way out and blaming the ills of the educational system on the teachers. After all, they are the most visible elements of our educational system. This tunnel vision is partly why things are in the shape that they are in now. Think about this for a moment if you will...

Some claim that teachers don't challenge students enough, but few ponder the effects of federal laws, such as inclusion of special education students in the mainstream classrooms (federally mandated) or the No Child Left Behind act (do yourself a favor...go to Google and look this one up...you might be astounded), which basically makes it impossible to allow excellent students excel or take on classes and assignments that are on their ability level (also federally mandated). If a teacher provides an off level text, either from a higher grade level or a lower one, this is considered illegal. For example, if little Johnny shows an accelerated ability to read the standard text and therefore is given a textbook that is two or three grade levels ahead, the school can be put on probation if discovered. This happened two years ago in our school, and No Child Left Behind will exacerbate the problem. I have seen Individualized Education Plans (IEP - federal law - look it up for yourself) that state that a particular student should be passed if they make a "reasonable effort", regardless of the grade they actually get. I haven't talked to a single teacher in my school who is a proponent of allowing students to pass without doing the work, even those who teach special education students. But basically, parents have carte blanche to pick and choose the educational practices that will be applied to their students. (Also check out the federal 504 plan...this is a monster too).

How can you teach Algebra to a bright eighth grader, while the kid who sits next to him has to count from a bag of M&M's just to get to ten? By law, both must be in the SAME clasroom...and the smart kid serves as a "norming peer" for the slower one. And for those of you who blame teachers for the kid who can't count, realize that PARENTS can do far more to ensure the success of their child than any teacher ever could. In fact, I can think of only a handful of children who had caring parents that don't have a successful educational experience. My mother made sure I could read BEFORE I entered Kindergarten. My brother could spell "rhinocerous" by the time he reached first grade. A billion math or science or reading lessons will be wasted if a child doesn't think that it is important to learn it (the catch phrase among my more delinquent 7th graders is, "I don't care"). If you sit at home in the recliner with a beer in one hand and the remote in the other, cursing the teacher for not making your kid a genius, then obviously the problem is not the teacher, whose hands are basically tied from a disciplinary standpoint.

Speaking of discipline, some claim that it is lacking. I agree, but again, people scream "It's the teachers!" and look no further. They don't realize that some kids aren't held to the same standards as others. I have had special education students, who are, again, mainstreamed with the rest of the school population (by law), curse me to my face in terms that would make a sailor blush. They know they can get away with it. The "special ed" tag has become a license for anarchy. Also, it is not uncommon for administrators to avoid punishing students to avoid lawsuits, and in our school, after assaulting students and a bus driver, one child was returned to school after his parents challenged his suspension. He too, was special ed, but I have also seen mainstream students' parents come in and back down the sternest administrators with the threat of a lawsuit. This is why many teachers join the NEA...they provide liability insurance against lawsuits. I am not a member of the NEA because I loathe what the group stands for, but when you fear a lawsuit every time you make incidental contact with a student, or try to administer a stern punishment, you have few options. I am considering joining to protect myself from a lawsuit that would basically end my career and bankrupt me.

People also claim that teaching is a cushy job. For some, it may be, when all that's considered is the three months off during the year. But, again, working under fear of lawsuits, potentially violent students that cannot be excluded by administration and the general frustration at parents who become riled when stern disciplinary action is taken against their kids, I would not call it easy. Not to mention almost constant documentation of behavior problems and being in a room for eight hours with 30 or more people whose only goal is to keep you from doing your job. Summer is the only time I can relax, not wondering if I will be in court within the next week.

Also, and this seems to be the real sticking point of this whole discussion, the idea that teachers earn a lot of money seems to really upset some people. I don't know where all these $50,000 a year educators work, but I do know that next year is my ninth year teaching, and it will be the first year that I may gross more than $30,000. I'm sure there are places where you could make $50,000 a year, but I don't think I'd want to work in such schools, as I'm sure the high salary is akin to combat pay.

And, I can't figure the people who think it is okay to seek a job that pays well and perhaps even wish for more money while they work at that job, but somehow, teachers should be altruistic and just settle for whatever they get, because they're doing it "for the kids" and they "love their job". Don't get me wrong, I think teachers should love their job, as that will make them care about their students, which is essential. And I think they should be working "for the kids", because that's kinda what education is all about. But, I don't think anyone should get upset when they want to up their salaries, just as you or anyone else might.

Despite all this, I love my job, I've learned to live comfortably on what I make, and sometimes, even though my best efforts go unrewarded, I can see where some encouragement or "tough love" makes a difference and motivates a kid to put forth their best efforts. I also know that the MAJORITY of the teachers I know are just like me, despite what people say, and are often stifled and hogtied by the higher-ups who think they know best.

Don't get me wrong...I'm not suggesting that a blind eye be turned to incompetence when it presents itself, and I have seen my share of incompetence, as most people in most workplaces have. I am saying that there's more to all this that what many people see (or choose to see), and what YOU may perceive as apathy may actually be adherence to some stupid law somewhere. But teachers, being the most visible facet of the school system, bear the brunt of the public ire.

Try this: go with your child to school someday, and see what really goes on. Don't be afraid to ask a lot of questions, as most teachers would be happy to tell you the reasons why they deal with situations as they do. I welcome this type of parental involvement, but despite many invitations, in my nine years of teaching, only three parents have been in my classroom to observe firsthand.

And above all, vote for people who will change the school system for the better...namely, by allowing or encouraging competition or, even better, privatizing the whole thing...

[summer]

Here is the link to EDUCATION NEXT where the salary article appears. (Scroll down to the article titled "Fringe Benefits.")

[Diva Betsy Ross]

oh, I am sorry . Did I hit a nerve. I know a great deal about entitlement. I was a school social worker. I did not go into social work for the money, just for the love of helping. When it did not work out they way I planned I tried many different jobs to try and figure out what I wanted to do. Then I got married then had kids with a stable man, who provides for his children. I made sure ,before marrying him, that he would be the kind of guy who stuck around through thick and thin. Then I started my own business. When I got pregnant, I decided to stay home and raise my kids. They are happy they have the greatest Mom on earth. ( That is what they call me)...and other Moms ask how I can be so dedicated to my kids and their education. I , of course tell them I have done a great deal of research and I know many types of educators. Some are good and many are bad. My motivation is keeping my kids away from abusive, self serving teachers who would kill the joy of life in them.

Name calling is not a sign of a good teacher in anyone's book. Or then again, perhaps it is a good sign in your kid's book or in yours. It is surley a way of getting children to listen to you. But here is a clue, it does not work well with adults who can think for themselves. I am far from sour, because I will never have to deal with poor teachers like you having influence over my children. I am perfectly happy and secure, I just don't tote the party line you are used to hearing. And unlike the children you yell at, I am not afraid of you.

Sorry this is a no bullying zone.

[Diva Betsy Ross]

Nope I have worked with the school district here for four years doing planning and budget. As a volunteer I pay for babysitting out of my pocket ,and I do a great deal of research. I pay huge taxes and I talk up the good teachers and school board members I have meet in my school district. And I homeschool and ask nothing from my school district. Sorry wrong again.

[Charles H. (The_r0nin)]

What a bunch of bull. Teachers these days are the least educated, creative people on earth. They have the cushiest jobs, and they under preform even most of their own students. They get tax rebates for being a teacher, and I have yet to meet one of them who actually raises their own children. I am sick of the grading papers baloney. Most teachers deserve the scorn they get for their entitlement attitude.

Alright, butt-munch, I'll say this slowly and use small words so you'll be sure to understand.

I teach in a right-to-work state, with no compulsary union. The starting salary for a teacher is ~30K, after 30 years the maximum salary is ~50K (that's a 20K increase for 30 years service). There are no bonuses, no merit raises or pay, and everyone gets paid based solely on his or her seniority (so I get less than the time-serving jackass down the hall simply because he's been here longer). There are no promotions, either (you need a separate degree nowadays to become an administrator). That's your "outrageous" salary scale...

I was double-majored physics/math in undergrad, went to grad schoool in English and taught at a major university for 3 years before becoming a high school teacher. I speak Anglo-Saxon and Old Icelandic, am fluent in Middle English, and have forgotten more about the English language than you'll ever know. I will have my CCNA in June, and program C++ (I was offered a job programming for three times my present salary, but decided to teach instead). And I have to listen to some anonymous probable low-brow jerk-off denigrate me and my profession on a web-board? I think not.

As for the state of modern education: it is horrible. And there is more than enough blame to go around. Quite frankly, the majority of the problems faced in the schools comes from parents who don't raise their kids properly and then demand that we "fix" the years of ignorance, neglect, and ill-discipline. So if you have a problem with the way your kids are learning, look in the mirror first.

As for my glorious salary, as I said, I could be making three times the amount I am now working in at least a half-dozen other occupations. But seeing a problem with modern education, I decided to try to help fix it. Instead of just bitching about the "lousy" teachers, why don't you quit your present job and become one? Take the pay cut and make a difference. Of course, you'd much rather complain from a distance, still filling your own pockets while decrying the efforts of others you obviously don't know.

Come on, tough guy! Post your occupation and salary. I'm sure I can think of lots of stereotypes and insults for it, too.

Wes ðu aweirge, læwede assa...

[Renegade]

Not a valid statistic friend .I can negate your statement with friends and teachers I know . Give me the facts, not dribble .

[Renegade]

The fact is :
If you go to a parochial school they don't put up with any crap . If you don't conform to the ways of the system they get rid of you and the students end up where ?? In the public schools.Then you are free to do most whatever you want because of the wimpy administrators who live in the humanistic feely good world and don't want to ruffle feathers .

[Charles H. (The_r0nin)]

PREACH ON!

I had a kid this year who had her private psychologist's "recommendations" included verbatim in the girl's IEP by an incompetent guidance counselor. They included such gems as declaring that the girl should never be reprimanded in front of her peers or in any way that might cause her embarrassment! Any discipline was to take place after class privately, and was not to be such that it would hurt her self-esteem. Also, the IEP stated that her disruptions of class should be ignored, if possible, as responding to them directly would violate the part above and really wasn't a "productive" method of dealing with her problems. As you know, this IEP has the force of law! So how much learning do you think got done by the 24 other kids in her class once she got going?

The touchy-feely social-worker types have destroyed modern education...

[mathluv]

School calendars are controlled by the school boards. The total number of days in school is set by the state.

In Texas, we have about 2 wks for Christmas - depends on when Christmas Day is - , one week Spring break, Easter weekend. School starts around the middle of Aug (or earlier), and ends about June 1. There are 185 school days for students, more for teachers. Teachers go to summer school to get their masters, or to get additional credits. Some districts require this on a regular basis - at the teachers expense. Some go to workshops in the summer.

[Principled]

I did not go into social work for the money, just for the love of helping.

I believe that, oh ya.
You just had the job because it was overpaid and cushy.

[FLAMING DEATH]

"Wimpy administrators" are only part of the problem. Truth is, even well-intetioned, hard-working administrators aren't allowed to be "tough" anymore, due to the real possiblity of parental lawsuits. See my previous post.

[Principled]

You sure seem AWFULLY sour.

[Principled]

Gee, you're so believable. Not.

It's just as likely that you're a dropout who is angry at the system. You've got a lot of anger.

[Renegade]

Bottom line -Get out of the computer sector . My son will be a junior at Va.Tech next year . He was gung ho on going into computer engineering. I talked him out of it and he is now a mechanical engineering major . HOPEFULLY he will land a job upon graduation in lieu of the fact that we are outsourcing many engineering jobs to countries like India etc .
I have encouraged him to take the Math certification test for education so that he has something else to fall back on if the engineering search doesn't pan out .He substituted this year ( teaching friends he knows that are now high school seniors ) and likes the job. Who knows ??

[mafree]

I'm interested in your plan to fix the union problem.

[Renegade]

I understand this fully . Imagime myself , a teacher for 35 years , a conservative , and an N.R.A. member ( with the sticker on my classroom door ) and driving an off road 4x4 with a picture on the slide window of a soldier wih a rifle . The saying " Inspections are working NOW!!. My most used quote is that " I am surrounded by idiots " My wife says I can't retire because I'll have nobody to pi$$ off .