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The Absurdity of 'Thinking in Language'
the author's site ^ | 1972 | Dallas Willard

Posted on 05/23/2003 3:59:51 PM PDT by unspun

The Absurdity of 'Thinking in Language'
This paper has been read to the University of Southern California philosophy group and the Boston 1972 meeting of the American Philosophical Association, as well as to the Houston meeting of the Southwestern Philosophical Society. Appeared in The Southwestern Journal of Philosophy, IV(1973), pp. 125-132. Numbers in "<>" refer to this journal.

Among the principal assumptions of major portions of philosophy in recent decades have been: (1) That philosophy somehow consists of (some sort of) logic, and (2) that logic is a study of and theory about (some sort of) language. There, of course, follows from these a third assumption: (3) That philosophy is a study of and theory about (some sort of) language--though this implication should not be taken as representing any phase of the historical development of recent philosophizing. Instead of listing these three points as assumptions, it would probably be more correct to regard them as categories or complexes of assumptions; or perhaps, more vaguely still, as 'tendencies' or proclivities of recent philosophical thinking. But precision of these points need not be put in issue here, as this paper does not seek any large-scale resolution of the problem area in question.

The aim here is to examine only one proposition which plays a role in the clearly existent tendencies referred to: Namely, the proposition that we think in or with language. I hope to show, first, that we do not always think in or with language; and then, second, that the very conception of thinking in or with language involves an absurdity. What implications this has for broader philosophical assumptions or tendencies will not be dealt with here, though the implications in question seem to me to be extremely important ones.

That human beings think in language is explicitly stated in such diverse places as ordinary newspapers, the more sophisticated popular magazines and journals, and serious discourse in the humanities and the social sciences, as well as in the technical writings of philosophers. To prove this broad range of consensus would be idle; but, in order to have the philosophical context clearly before us, we may give a few brief quotations. <126> 

     (1) Man, like every living creature, thinks unceasingly, but does not know it: the thinking which becomes conscious of itself is only the smallest part thereof. And, we may say, the worst part:--for this conscious thinking alone is done in words, that is to say, in the symbols for communication, by means of which the origin of consciousness is revealed. (Nietzsche, Joyful Wisdom, sub-sec. # 354)

     (2) Let no one be contemptuous of symbols! A good deal depends upon a practical selection of them. Furthermore, their value is not diminished by the fact that after much practice, we no longer really need to call forth a symbol, we do not need to speak out loud in order to think. The fact remains that we think in words or, when not in words, then in mathematical or other symbols. (Frege, Mind, Vol. 73, p. 156)

     (3) It is misleading then to talk of thinking as of a 'mental activity'. We may say that thinking is essentially the activity of operating with signs. This activity is performed by the hand, when we think by writing; by the mouth and larynx, when we think by speaking; and if we think by imagining signs or pictures, I can give you no agent that thinks. If then you say that in such cases the mind thinks, I would only draw your attention to the fact that you are using a metaphor, that here the mind is an agent in a different sense from that in which the hand can be said to be an agent in writing. (Wittgenstein, Blue Book, pp. 6-7)

     (4) ... The woof and warp of all thought and all research is symbols, and the life of thought and science is the life inherent in symbols; so that it is wrong to say that a good language is important to good thought, merely; for it is of the essence of it. (C. S. Peirce, Collected Papers, II, p. 129)

     (5) Words only matter because words are what we think with. (H. H. Price, Aristotelian Society, Suppl. Vol. XIX, p. 7)

     (6) Theorizing is an activity which most people can and normally do conduct in silence. They articulate in sentences the theories that they construct, but they do not most of the time speak these sentences out loud. They say them to themselves.... Much of our ordinary thinking is conducted in internal monologue or silent soliloquy, usually accompanied by an internal cinematograph-show of visual imagery.... This trick of talking to oneself in silence is acquired neither quickly nor without effort.... (Ryle, Concept of Mind, p. 27. See also pp. 282-83 and 296-97) <127>

     (7)This helps to elucidate the well-known difficulty of thinking without words. Certain kinds of thinking are pieces of intelligent talking to oneself. Consider the way in which I 'thinkingly' wrote the last sentence. I can no more do the 'thinking' part without the talking (or writing) part than a man can do the being graceful part of walking apart from the walking (or some equivalent activity). (J.J.C. Smart, Philosophy and Scientific Realism, p. 89)

These quotations will suffice to establish the context within which philosophers speak of thinking in language (or with language). Many other quotations could be added from the literature.1 It is not assumed here that the persons quoted all occupy the same position with reference to the relationship between thought and language. Yet it would be interesting to see what any of these thinkers, or others who suppose that human beings think in language, could save of their position from the critique which follows.

Uneasiness about the conception of thinking in or with language has been expressed by a number of writers, but only over limited aspects of it.2 Here we shall consider arguments which purport to call the conception into question entirely and in principle. First, consider a reason for rejecting the view that we always think in language. It consists in the fact that thinking often occurs without the production, manipulation, or perception of sense-perceptible signs, without which there is no use of language. Such occurrences often provoke offers of 'A penny for your thoughts.'

Thinking: Whatever we may decide to call them, and however it is that we are conscious of them, there are intentional states of persons, more or less fixed or fleeting, which do not require for their obtaining that what they are about or of be perceived by, or be impinging causally upon, the person involved. In order to think of3 Henry the Eighth, <128> of the first auto one owned, of the Pythagorean theorem, or of the Mississippi River, it is not required that they should disturb my nervous system. Such states (t-states) of persons are often called 'thoughts', especially in contrast with 'perceptions', and being in such a state is one of the things more commonly called 'thinking'. One no more needs to be going through a change of such states in order to be thinking, than he needs to be changing his bodily position in order to be sitting or lying or sleeping. Rarely if ever--as is alleged in the case of mystic contemplation--are these t-states unchanging. Usually they flow, at varying rates, intermingled with person states of many sorts, governed by such transitional structures as inference, goal orientation, objective structures given in perception or in other ways, and elemental association of 'ideas', among others. In what follows, we shall use 'thinking' to cover both the single t-state and the flow of such states, without regard to how intermingled with other person states.

Language: Sense perceptible signs or symbols are an essential constituent of language. It is always false to say that language is present or in use where no signs are present or in use. And, whatever else a sign may be, it is something which is apprehendable via its sensible qualities. That is, it is something which can be either seen, heard, felt, tasted or smelled. Moreover, the use of language requires some level of actual sensuous apprehension of the signs which are in use on the occasion. (Confusion or distortion of this sensuous feedback can render a subject incapable of writing or speaking; and, of course, without perception of the sign-sequences emitted, one cannot understand the person emitting language.)

Now cases can be produced almost at will where thinking occurs without language being present or in use. This, of course, is something which everyone--including the proponent of thinking-in-language--very well knows. It is these cases which, together with the assumption that we always think in language, create what in (7) was called "the well-known difficulty of thinking without words." If, as in (3), "thinking is essentially the activity of operating with signs," then when there are no signs--and when, consequently, the means by which we produce, manipulate, or perceive signs are not functioning--we do have a difficulty. In fact, a difficulty so severe that it amounts to a proof that thinking is not essentially the activity of operating with signs, and that often we think entirely without language. One cannot operate with signs where there are no signs. <129> 

As the above quotations indicate, the most common move made to save 'thinking in language' at this point is the shift to 'silent soliloquy,' as in (6), or to 'pieces of intelligent talking to oneself,' as in (7). These are latter-day shades of John Watson's 'sub-vocal language.' Of course one can talk to oneself or write to onself. But talking and writing to oneself require the production and perception of sensuous signs just as much as talking and writing to another. The realization of this is what drives the thinking-in-language advocate to silent soliloquy or to nonvocal speaking--the written counterpart of which would be invisible writing. That is, they are driven to flat absurdities. A silent soliloquy--that is, silent speaking--is precisely on a par with a silent trumpet solo, for example, or silent thunder. A poet may say:

       Heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard

            Are sweeter; therefore, ye soft pipes, play on;

       Not to the sensual ear, but, more endeared,

            Pipe to the spirit ditties of no tone;...

               (Keats, Ode to a Grecian Urn)

But there are in fact no unhearable melodies, no ears other than the "sensual," no ditties of no tone.

What those who speak of silent discourse have in mind is, no doubt, the fact that interlaced with our thinking of or about things is a great deal of imaging of linguistic entities. (This is especially true of academics or intellectuals in general, because of their great concern with expression of thought. Probably an adequate phenomenology of thinking would exhibit great contrast between them and other classes of persons precisely at the relation between thinking and degree of activity in imaging linguistic entities and events.) But imaging a word is not using a word, any more than imaging a horse is using a horse. Moreover, imaging a word, phrase, or sentence is not producing or perceiving a word, phrase, or sentence any more than imaging a horse is producing or perceiving--or otherwise 'having'--a horse. To image a linguistic sequence is not to have it in a special sort of place--the mind--nor is it to have a special sort of linguistic sequence. To image is to exemplify a certain sort of thinking or intentional state, and a sort which does have interesting relationships with other kinds of thinking. But there is no reason at all to suppose that all kinds of thinking necessarily involve or are accompanied by this kind of thinking (imaging) directed upon language segments. And if there were, it still would not follow that all thinking requires language, since this kind of thinking about language segments is not itself language at all. Nor does it require any <130> language present in order for it to come to pass, since intentional inexistence applies to mental events when language segments are the objects, as well as when sticks and stones and animals are.

Having considered a reason for rejecting the proposition that human beings always think in language, let us now consider whether they ever do. In fact, the difficulty is not, as Smart (above) and others have thought, in seeing how one can think without language, but in seeing how one would think with it. Thinking with or in language must consist in doing something with symbols, and so necessarily involves doing something to them--e.g., producing, altering, or perceiving them. If we would do something with the knife (e.g., cut the bread), we must do something to the knife, (e.g., clasp it in our hands). But, as we have seen, thinking occurs where nothing at all is being done to or with signs, there not being any signs in these cases. The power or act of having or changing t-states--that is, the power or act of thinking--is, then, not a power or act of having or altering linguistic symbols. (It is not, in fact, a power of doing anything with or in anything at all. The profound difference in kinds of powers and acts involved here is what Wittgenstein calls attention to in the last sentence of (3) above.) Thought is, of course, practical, in that it exercises an influence upon, or makes some difference in, the world of sense particulars. But it alone is not capable of acting with the sorts of particulars used in linguistic behavior as its immediate instruments. It is just this incapacity which makes it impossible for the advocates of thinking-in-language to give any account of the mechanisms or the 'how' by which the words in which we, allegedly, think are produced, manipulated, and gotten rid of--though they must be produced (or stored and hauled out), manipulated, and, in some sense, gotten rid of, if we are to think with and in them as our tools or instruments.

Merely to ask the question of how, in detail, this is done in the course of thinking reveals, I believe, the absurdity of 'thinking in language'. Mere thinking can do nothing to signs which might be used in a language, and hence it can do nothing with such signs, or in the act of modifying the conditions of such signs. It is absurd to suppose that one can do x with y without in some way bringing about a change in the condition, state, relations, or properties of y. It is this and only this that I put by saying that it is absurd to suppose that one can do something with y while doing nothing to y.

If it is replied that, of course, the mind or thought does not do these things, but that when we write, speak, hear, see, and otherwise relate to actual words in the actual employment of language, we then are thinking, with bodily parts managing the symbols involved, then it <131> must be pointed out that, while we may indeed also be thinking in such cases, we are not simply thinking. The total event here, to which language certainly is essential, is not thinking. Correct use of language can even occur, as has been pointed out by Wittgenstein, without the occurrence of any peculiarly relevant t-states. On the other hand, thinking does occur without the use of hands, mouth, ears, eyes, fingers in any appropriately relevant manner. Hence, what can only occur by the use of these is not the same as thinking, though it may somehow involve or influence thinking.

Smart remarks in (7) that, when he thinkingly wrote the sentence, "Certain kinds of thinking are pieces of intelligent talking to oneself," he could "no more do the 'thinking' part without the talking (or writing) part than a man can do the being graceful part of walking apart from the walking." This may be true of thinkingly writing the sentence (whatever that means). But it does not follow that one cannot think that certain kinds of thinking are pieces of intelligent talking to oneself without the use of language, though Smart clearly thinks that it does. Of course one cannot thinkingly write without writing. But that is nothing to the point of whether or not we can and do think with or without words. Also, the comparison to graceful walking is not apt. We do, as above shown, sometimes think without words or symbols, while no cases of grace without behavior are known.

Now it is very certainly true that some processes clearly involving thinking as described above depend for their occurrence upon linguistic behavior and the sensible signs which it involves, for example, the processes of learning algebra or the history of the Basques, or learning how to counsel emotionally upset persons. But it is to be noted that these are not themselves processes of thinking, but rather are extremely complex processes involving all kinds of events and entities other than language and other than thinking--e.g., feelings, perceptions, buildings, other persons, days and nights, books, and so on. None of these processes is a process of thinking; and for that reason alone it is invalid to infer from them that thinking is linguistic behavior, or that one thinks with language. What is essential to things or events of a certain sort must be shown essential to them taken by themselves, not in combination with many other things. With reference to the involved processes in question, it might be more appropriate (though it would still be wrong) to say--as some have said in recent years--that we live in or with language. Nevertheless, it is certain that some kind of dependence relation--probably similar to feedback mechanisms--exists between linguistic processes and their sensuous signs, on the one hand, and certain sequences of t-states on the other. What, exactly, this relation <132> of dependence is continues to be veiled by, among other things, a priori assumptions about what thinking and language must be and do. One such assumption is that which holds thinking essentially to be an operation with signs or symbols, or doing something with--or in--linguistic processes or entities.

The view that we (necessarily) think without language is, today, regarded as so outlandish as not to merit serious consideration. But this is not due to a lack of arguments to support it. My object here has been to focus upon certain arguments purporting to show the absurdity of thinking in language. The main points in these arguments are: Thinking does occur without any accompanying language whatsoever, and thus shows itself not to be a power or act of managing linguistic signs, once it is clear what such a sign is. Thinking, as distinct from behavioral processes involving it, can do nothing to signs or symbols, and hence can do nothing with them.


NOTES

  1. See for example, Ramsey's Foundations of Mathematics, p. 138, and Kneale's remarks in Feigl and Sellars, Readings in Philosophical Analysis, p. 42. Return to text.
  2. See S. Morris Engel, "Thought and Language," Dialogue, Vol. 3, 1964, 160-170; Jerome Shaffer, "Recent Work on the Mind-Body Problem," American Philosophical Quarterly, Vol. II, 1965, esp. p. 83; R. Kirk, "Rationality Without Language," Mind, 1967, pp. 369-368; G. Ryle, "A Puzzling Element in the Notion of Thinking," in Studies in the Philosophy of Thought and Action, P. F. Strawson, ed., (Oxford: 1968), pp. 7-23. Interesting remarks on the issues here are also found in Bruce Aune's Knowledge, Mind and Nature, chap. VIII and H. H. Price's Thinking and Experience, Chap. X.  See also Wm. James, "Thought Before Language; A Deaf Mute's Recollections," Mind, Vol. I, 1892; and see Wittgenstein's comments on this in Philosophical Investigations, No. 342. Return to text.
  3. I use only think here, for simplicity; but think that and other structures of such intentional states (and sequences thereof) might also be mentioned. Specifically, I would also wish to hold that instances of thinking that, in the sense of inferring or puzzling something out, occur in the absence of appropriate linguistic entities or activities. Return to text.


TOPICS: Philosophy
KEYWORDS: consciousness; dallaswillard; epistemology; faithandphilosophy; godsgravesglyphs; intelligence; intention; intentionality; language; linguistics; metaphysics; mind; ontology; psychology; semantics; semasiology; semiotics; sense; thinking; thought; willard
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To: Alamo-Girl
Right, Mary hangin' out at the temple with the Scribes and Pharisees : ).
961 posted on 05/29/2003 4:05:42 PM PDT by cornelis (Or was she heading down to Hades for the big payback?)
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To: Consort
The Grand Design?... Creators within Creation?

Seems possible to me. Though neither squares with, say, Darwinist theory, or scientific materialism in general.

962 posted on 05/29/2003 5:10:58 PM PDT by betty boop (When people accept futility and the absurd as normal, the culture is decadent. -- Jacques Barzun)
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To: Consort; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; Kudsman; Dataman; cornelis; tortoise; man of Yosemite; Cvengr; ...
So, you are using "relater" to say that we have a body, a soul, and an intellect? Would that be accurate?

You've probably heard this repeadedly and could have written it yourself (at least what is true, in this) but some things bear repeating, eh?

So, thanks for asking: yes, and more. (More constituent aspects of self exist of course, though as our FRiend - who is it now? I think we lost him - says, it all may come in three categories for all I know and as, I'm told, the reasonable old Greek whose name begins with a "P" also thought. It may seem that soul is kind of interstitial twixt spirit and body/physical, like a seemingly* big set of "drivers" and "interfaces." And then there's will. Shucks, thinking one way then another, it seems that all bits and pieces of us are laced with will, whether conscious or not.)

But really, more than the above and its "more," what is most about us is to see that how we are as beings is determined by why we are, as relaters. And so, the most fundamental aspect of me is not that I think, because being a being has an even more material purpose (and the same as the purpose for how I feel**). I am a relational being. Beyond this, I think it is even more fundamental to say, "I am a being of relationality." Function is an identifier, but purpose is a greater identifier, of both the function and the particular. And if we have a most important purpose, the functions of that purpose identify us more than any other functions we have.

Without resorting to Scriptures directly this time, I'll refer to what Henry Blackaby says (over and over and over again ;-) that our "calling" as he puts it, is to be in a deeply intimate loving relationship with God -- even a communion with Him! That's "the life that is truly life." (Oops, there's the Scripture.)

bb has just related that the ancient Greeks thought that Time is the image of Eternity. We are taught of course that we are created in the image of God. Images are stamped for purposes and the image that we who know God collectively have is that of God's very life mate for the person of his revelation to us. (How many folks in the Bible got queasy when they were given revelations? When you consider this, do you get butterflies? I just did. And more.)

This is our great, collective relationship and identity, yet it is made up of us each having an autonomous communion, God only and directly to and with the individual. In this way, as is Christ, so are we, his sons in Christ, and that is our individual identity. That most massive (or as the old Hebrews would say, "glorious") collective relationship is comprised of all these also infinite, autonomous relationships. So who am I? "I AM THAT I AM" has told me that I am a being of individual and collective communality with Him, autonomously imparted and maintained, and constituent in the collective "meet" of the revealed God. For this purpose, I am an individual of communal relationship: in God, therefore in my being, with all of the other adherents/constituents of the life partner of Christ, and in relational harmony to God with all else of His perfection. But for the time being, this is deeply encapsulated if you will in each of us. Presently, we may each have that autonomous sonship, plus have a kind of subdued communion in the invisible bride, not of this world, who is still 'putting herself together' in her dressing room.

And while bb's world is an open book from God, it also includes much hideous graffiti, but that's another part of the story. (And the most important player in the story by more than far, is God.)

_______________________________________________
  * probable partial credit to tortoise for "seemingly"
** Feelings, heart, soul, emotions... why do philosophers choose to ignore this so much in favor of reason? That is not just unreasonable but -- you know what?     IT IRKS ME!

BTW, I'm still just a little queasy. How about you?

(Please forgive my imperfections, even though I have edited and "proof" read it quite a bit.)

963 posted on 05/29/2003 5:41:28 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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...this is deeply encapsulated if you will in each of us.

We, who are willingly regenerated, we being fallen and our Savior being "a gentleman" as it's said.

964 posted on 05/29/2003 5:48:14 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: unspun
Hi. Condiment time. First impulse is: relationality? Great new conjunctive use of an oldy but goody. I thought this word was out of great disfavor these days. Of course by relational being you are incorporating the axiom of relativity right? I think if you leave that out some of the readers will want to know why it wasn't included. JMO. My thanks again for an astounding thread. It has been a pleasure that I have been allowed to contribute a little and learn alot. Bookmarking now. BBS. After more ketchup naturally.

BTW I'm glad we were cloned by the same source ;-).

965 posted on 05/29/2003 6:29:06 PM PDT by Kudsman (LETS GET IT ON!!! The price of freedom is vigilance. Tyranny is free of charge.)
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To: unspun
do you get butterflies There you go trying to use language again to describe a thought and physical reaction you had while considering your individual communion with The Lamb. LOL.
966 posted on 05/29/2003 6:35:56 PM PDT by Kudsman (LETS GET IT ON!!! The price of freedom is vigilance. Tyranny is free of charge.)
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Oops didn't turn off the italics. Sorry.
967 posted on 05/29/2003 6:37:03 PM PDT by Kudsman (LETS GET IT ON!!! The price of freedom is vigilance. Tyranny is free of charge.)
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To: unspun
Thanks for the explanation. Yes, feelings, and desires, as well, need more attention paid to them. They are a vital aspect of awareness and provide the impetus for us to use our volition and will to make decisions and take actions in our day to day lives.
968 posted on 05/29/2003 6:41:59 PM PDT by Consort
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To: betty boop
Does some natural process of development imply evolution? Hello Consort! Personally, I think it does. Yet a question remains unanswered: What kind of evolution -- designed or probabilistic?

Oh dear lady you have me absolutely tingling with this one. :-) I know you get alot of hugs but I'm offering you yet another.

969 posted on 05/29/2003 6:49:26 PM PDT by Kudsman (LETS GET IT ON!!! The price of freedom is vigilance. Tyranny is free of charge.)
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To: Kudsman
With all the hugs around here, I'm expecting Barney to show up at any moment.
970 posted on 05/29/2003 7:07:29 PM PDT by tortoise
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To: betty boop
Thank you so much for all your posts!

If any can "show that faith is not "unreasonable" in their terms" - it is you! Hugs!

971 posted on 05/29/2003 7:38:09 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: cornelis
Thank you for your post! When you mentioned Mary hangin' out at the temple with the Scribes and Pharisees it brought Anna to mind:

And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; And she [was] a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served [God] with fastings and prayers night and day.

And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem. – Luke 2:36-38

A lot of people are more comfortable with liturgy, authority figures and such; I respect that, but it’s just not me. I don’t feel more reverent in churches, missions or cathedrals than I do anywhere else - nor more aware of God on one day of the week than any other - nor do I ever feel subordinate to any mortal.

So I wouldn’t be either the Mary hangin' out at the temple with the Scribes and Pharisees or Anna – instead, I'd be more like Mary sitting at Jesus' feet in Luke 10 or this:

I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. – John 15:5

Hugs!

972 posted on 05/29/2003 8:13:11 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Kudsman
Most gladly received and returned, Kudsman! :^)
973 posted on 05/29/2003 8:26:08 PM PDT by betty boop (When people accept futility and the absurd as normal, the culture is decadent. -- Jacques Barzun)
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To: betty boop
I've never read St. Augustine , but I like what you've quoted in your post. God never asks people to stop thinking in the common experiences of life. A life should be based on thought,good judgment, experience and common sense. Occasionally, God will prompt someone into a place of faith where reason and experience are to be secondary to faith and the word of the Lord. God directed Moses to strike a rock in order to get water, an impossible place to find water, unless of course directed there by God. We are to be rational beings until the miraculous appears, and then we are to be people of faith, for God can hold the sun in it's place, or cause the sundial to reverse it's shadow. Natural Law is in effect unless God chooses to suspend it. We make poor witnesses for God if we get to crazy, but if the power of God is directing our foolishness, the power and the glory will speak louder than any reason.
974 posted on 05/29/2003 8:39:12 PM PDT by man of Yosemite ("When a man decides to do something everyday, that's about when he stops doing it.")
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To: unspun
So who am I? "I AM THAT I AM" has told me that I am a being of individual and collective communality with Him, autonomously imparted and maintained, and constituent in the collective "meet" of the revealed God. For this purpose, I am an individual of communal relationship: in God, therefore in my being, with all of the other adherents/constituents of the life partner of Christ, and in relational harmony to God with all else of His perfection. But for the time being, this is deeply encapsulated if you will in each of us. Presently, we may each have that autonomous sonship, plus have a kind of subdued communion in the invisible bride, not of this world, who is still 'putting herself together' in her dressing room.

Do I feel "queasy?" Nope. Not after reading the immediately foregoing, which is beautiful.

Geez, Brother Arlen, you sure are giving me a lot of grief over my love for the Greeks! But where did you get the idea that I "worship" Plato? There is nothing and nobody can take precedence over "the way, the truth, and the life" -- the Son of God, the Logos of the beginning, Alpha and Omega, our mediator and justifier in the sight of the "I AM THAT I AM," Who shall one day come to judge the living and the dead -- that is, our Lord, Jesus Christ; Who is Savior, and closer to me than my own heartbeat.

Well, maybe I should be feeling a bit "queasy." For isn't one of the seven great gifts of the Holy Spirit the "fear of God?"

975 posted on 05/29/2003 8:43:10 PM PDT by betty boop (When people accept futility and the absurd as normal, the culture is decadent. -- Jacques Barzun)
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl; Kudsman; cornelis; logos; r9etb; js1138; Diamond; Consort; ...
Thanks and hopefully all but adulation to betty boop.  I have some reservations with what is depicted here, from Barzun, though.  Having studied such things much, much less though, please put these reservations before a big, humble question mark:

I confess I find Jacques' depiction of the degree of congregational polity in Reformation church fellowhips to be exaggerated, compared to what else I've read.  For example, these cited movement/denominations were in their time considered deviant and troublesome by Reformed denominations (and often persecuted, sometimes as vigorously as the RC hierarchy persecuted the Reformers):Anabaptists/Baptists, Puritans, Quakers (and even Methodists). But, to illustrate my comparative lack of education about it all, I don't recall the others listed (and of course I vassn't der for any of them)  Personally, I'd tend to distinguish these church movements as supra-Reformation. Big-R Reformed orders, however remained pretty hierarchical in polity as well as high-church in worship.

As an example, this rings quite true, "Consciously or not, some of the Puritans shared the scientists’ trust in experience, in results, in utility." but one recalls the Puritans were a somewhat short-lived minority in England (Cromwell's regime being discontinued and then hopes for purifying the Church of England petering out).  Puritans and Presbyterians though, from what I've seen and heard, were perhaps the most aggressive and pervasive "equal opportunity" capitalists around and fed this blessing into the mainstream of the American cultural revolution.  (A big, big point that they maintained and one which should ever be shouted from the housetops is that for an authentic Regenerate in Christ, all aspects of life are to be spiritual.  The profane in this understanding of Scripture and life is what is defeated at Salvation and ever afterward to be put to death (and/or never reassumed).

If I recall right... add to the Puritans (later aptly called Congregationalists) and Presbyterians (mainly immigrated Scots including those from Ulster) the greater numbers of the Calvinist movement (maybe big-R Reformation, but I think it seems a bit more like what Barzun seems to describe) and the later, fiery Great Awakening (more Methodist in orientation) and we have enough democratic-like people around to actually fulfill the prior "Reformation" thinkers' hopes!  

Funny how such a thing would happen....

Howwwwwwever... a big "bump" for especially the Puritan grounds for the sentiments later found in the Declaration (given a big bump also by the aforementioned Great Awakening) although, lest my observations become a doctrinaire thesis, if I recall correctly some of the fine political philosophers who foreran the Revolution were of the Church of England (even a Catholic or two?).

Also, let's keep in mind that the motive of the "Protestants" was not to protest in the negative, but to "speak for" and not to speak chiefly for individuality, but for being "transformed by the renewing of our minds" and being (as one and any and all would understand) what the Lord intended, as revealed through the Scriptures, both individually and as the Church.  Thankfully, such motives may still be found by those (in or out of any denomination) not willing to settle for the conservatism of the status quo, nor traditions where they are found to be "traditions taught by men."

BTW, this is not a knock the people of the RC and big-R Reformation denominations; we're not talkin' people here, but as ms. boop related, the cultural influences of teaching and church formation.)

BTW2, I think keeping the Bible from the darkened ones in the Dark Ages was probably more cause than effect of their illiteracy, judging from what the report(s) I've seen of the overriding motives of those who later educated themselves and/or their children.

BTW3, I suggest one will continue to find the separate influences of Roman Catholic hierarchy and Reformation/supra-Reformation/Evangelical in American politics and all you have to do to see it is to look at "The Map."  (Yep, the famous red and blue map from the miraculous I think Bush election.)  I live in the suburbs of Chicago, and I see it here.
?

I'll just end this by pulling this out from bb's post and individualistically bolding part of it:

The Reformation changed all this. Its spirit of emancipation had the effect of fostering the spirit of democracy as a political concept, and of democratizing thought. No longer was truth perceived as the deposit of faith under the protection of a professional elite. Truth was everyman’s, susceptible to individual reason.

...everyman's, to hold in earthen vessels that is, albet God will not give his glory to another.

976 posted on 05/29/2003 10:13:16 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl
But where did you get the idea that I "worship" Plato?

Don't have it, don't recall it. You've seemed at times to be a generous person and who would want you to be stingy?

And if I got that pronouncement pretty right, it's just the work of an embedded (and embedded in) reporter.

BTW, way back when I was 21, in I think the first class in my one little year in a seminary, we were to fairly quickly draft a very brief assessment of our "world views." My theme went something like: just as the Lord invaded an opposing world, to recover those who would be delivered from darkness, we are temporarily agents in the fallen world for his eternal purposes.... I think I got a "C" along with a comment criticizing my superficiality. O the "opposing forces," wherever the provocateur in Christ may go. ;-`

Pinging A-G, due to the wilfullness and self in this post! 8-l

BTW, did I tell you I have yet to turn in a term paper -- on how a Christian could effectively the gospel to those in Islamic cultures?

977 posted on 05/29/2003 10:43:35 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: unspun
BTW, this is not a knock the people of the RC and big-R Reformation denominations; we're not talkin' people here, but as ms. boop related, the cultural influences of teaching and church formation.)

O-k, of course I'm talking people too, but not... specific individuals ;-p except I may have inferred something benign about Calvin.

978 posted on 05/29/2003 11:01:00 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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The Reformation changed all this. Its spirit of emancipation had the effect of fostering the spirit of democracy as a political concept, and of democratizing thought. No longer was truth perceived as the deposit of faith under the protection of a professional elite. Truth was everyman’s....

O-k, one more post to become tired of. Sadly, this is not really, thoroughly true, not even in so very many evangelical and charismatic fellowships.

979 posted on 05/29/2003 11:08:22 PM PDT by unspun (roamin' catholic)
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And how 'bout dem thoughts and languages?
980 posted on 05/29/2003 11:09:52 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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