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The Absurdity of 'Thinking in Language'
the author's site ^ | 1972 | Dallas Willard

Posted on 05/23/2003 3:59:51 PM PDT by unspun

The Absurdity of 'Thinking in Language'
This paper has been read to the University of Southern California philosophy group and the Boston 1972 meeting of the American Philosophical Association, as well as to the Houston meeting of the Southwestern Philosophical Society. Appeared in The Southwestern Journal of Philosophy, IV(1973), pp. 125-132. Numbers in "<>" refer to this journal.

Among the principal assumptions of major portions of philosophy in recent decades have been: (1) That philosophy somehow consists of (some sort of) logic, and (2) that logic is a study of and theory about (some sort of) language. There, of course, follows from these a third assumption: (3) That philosophy is a study of and theory about (some sort of) language--though this implication should not be taken as representing any phase of the historical development of recent philosophizing. Instead of listing these three points as assumptions, it would probably be more correct to regard them as categories or complexes of assumptions; or perhaps, more vaguely still, as 'tendencies' or proclivities of recent philosophical thinking. But precision of these points need not be put in issue here, as this paper does not seek any large-scale resolution of the problem area in question.

The aim here is to examine only one proposition which plays a role in the clearly existent tendencies referred to: Namely, the proposition that we think in or with language. I hope to show, first, that we do not always think in or with language; and then, second, that the very conception of thinking in or with language involves an absurdity. What implications this has for broader philosophical assumptions or tendencies will not be dealt with here, though the implications in question seem to me to be extremely important ones.

That human beings think in language is explicitly stated in such diverse places as ordinary newspapers, the more sophisticated popular magazines and journals, and serious discourse in the humanities and the social sciences, as well as in the technical writings of philosophers. To prove this broad range of consensus would be idle; but, in order to have the philosophical context clearly before us, we may give a few brief quotations. <126> 

     (1) Man, like every living creature, thinks unceasingly, but does not know it: the thinking which becomes conscious of itself is only the smallest part thereof. And, we may say, the worst part:--for this conscious thinking alone is done in words, that is to say, in the symbols for communication, by means of which the origin of consciousness is revealed. (Nietzsche, Joyful Wisdom, sub-sec. # 354)

     (2) Let no one be contemptuous of symbols! A good deal depends upon a practical selection of them. Furthermore, their value is not diminished by the fact that after much practice, we no longer really need to call forth a symbol, we do not need to speak out loud in order to think. The fact remains that we think in words or, when not in words, then in mathematical or other symbols. (Frege, Mind, Vol. 73, p. 156)

     (3) It is misleading then to talk of thinking as of a 'mental activity'. We may say that thinking is essentially the activity of operating with signs. This activity is performed by the hand, when we think by writing; by the mouth and larynx, when we think by speaking; and if we think by imagining signs or pictures, I can give you no agent that thinks. If then you say that in such cases the mind thinks, I would only draw your attention to the fact that you are using a metaphor, that here the mind is an agent in a different sense from that in which the hand can be said to be an agent in writing. (Wittgenstein, Blue Book, pp. 6-7)

     (4) ... The woof and warp of all thought and all research is symbols, and the life of thought and science is the life inherent in symbols; so that it is wrong to say that a good language is important to good thought, merely; for it is of the essence of it. (C. S. Peirce, Collected Papers, II, p. 129)

     (5) Words only matter because words are what we think with. (H. H. Price, Aristotelian Society, Suppl. Vol. XIX, p. 7)

     (6) Theorizing is an activity which most people can and normally do conduct in silence. They articulate in sentences the theories that they construct, but they do not most of the time speak these sentences out loud. They say them to themselves.... Much of our ordinary thinking is conducted in internal monologue or silent soliloquy, usually accompanied by an internal cinematograph-show of visual imagery.... This trick of talking to oneself in silence is acquired neither quickly nor without effort.... (Ryle, Concept of Mind, p. 27. See also pp. 282-83 and 296-97) <127>

     (7)This helps to elucidate the well-known difficulty of thinking without words. Certain kinds of thinking are pieces of intelligent talking to oneself. Consider the way in which I 'thinkingly' wrote the last sentence. I can no more do the 'thinking' part without the talking (or writing) part than a man can do the being graceful part of walking apart from the walking (or some equivalent activity). (J.J.C. Smart, Philosophy and Scientific Realism, p. 89)

These quotations will suffice to establish the context within which philosophers speak of thinking in language (or with language). Many other quotations could be added from the literature.1 It is not assumed here that the persons quoted all occupy the same position with reference to the relationship between thought and language. Yet it would be interesting to see what any of these thinkers, or others who suppose that human beings think in language, could save of their position from the critique which follows.

Uneasiness about the conception of thinking in or with language has been expressed by a number of writers, but only over limited aspects of it.2 Here we shall consider arguments which purport to call the conception into question entirely and in principle. First, consider a reason for rejecting the view that we always think in language. It consists in the fact that thinking often occurs without the production, manipulation, or perception of sense-perceptible signs, without which there is no use of language. Such occurrences often provoke offers of 'A penny for your thoughts.'

Thinking: Whatever we may decide to call them, and however it is that we are conscious of them, there are intentional states of persons, more or less fixed or fleeting, which do not require for their obtaining that what they are about or of be perceived by, or be impinging causally upon, the person involved. In order to think of3 Henry the Eighth, <128> of the first auto one owned, of the Pythagorean theorem, or of the Mississippi River, it is not required that they should disturb my nervous system. Such states (t-states) of persons are often called 'thoughts', especially in contrast with 'perceptions', and being in such a state is one of the things more commonly called 'thinking'. One no more needs to be going through a change of such states in order to be thinking, than he needs to be changing his bodily position in order to be sitting or lying or sleeping. Rarely if ever--as is alleged in the case of mystic contemplation--are these t-states unchanging. Usually they flow, at varying rates, intermingled with person states of many sorts, governed by such transitional structures as inference, goal orientation, objective structures given in perception or in other ways, and elemental association of 'ideas', among others. In what follows, we shall use 'thinking' to cover both the single t-state and the flow of such states, without regard to how intermingled with other person states.

Language: Sense perceptible signs or symbols are an essential constituent of language. It is always false to say that language is present or in use where no signs are present or in use. And, whatever else a sign may be, it is something which is apprehendable via its sensible qualities. That is, it is something which can be either seen, heard, felt, tasted or smelled. Moreover, the use of language requires some level of actual sensuous apprehension of the signs which are in use on the occasion. (Confusion or distortion of this sensuous feedback can render a subject incapable of writing or speaking; and, of course, without perception of the sign-sequences emitted, one cannot understand the person emitting language.)

Now cases can be produced almost at will where thinking occurs without language being present or in use. This, of course, is something which everyone--including the proponent of thinking-in-language--very well knows. It is these cases which, together with the assumption that we always think in language, create what in (7) was called "the well-known difficulty of thinking without words." If, as in (3), "thinking is essentially the activity of operating with signs," then when there are no signs--and when, consequently, the means by which we produce, manipulate, or perceive signs are not functioning--we do have a difficulty. In fact, a difficulty so severe that it amounts to a proof that thinking is not essentially the activity of operating with signs, and that often we think entirely without language. One cannot operate with signs where there are no signs. <129> 

As the above quotations indicate, the most common move made to save 'thinking in language' at this point is the shift to 'silent soliloquy,' as in (6), or to 'pieces of intelligent talking to oneself,' as in (7). These are latter-day shades of John Watson's 'sub-vocal language.' Of course one can talk to oneself or write to onself. But talking and writing to oneself require the production and perception of sensuous signs just as much as talking and writing to another. The realization of this is what drives the thinking-in-language advocate to silent soliloquy or to nonvocal speaking--the written counterpart of which would be invisible writing. That is, they are driven to flat absurdities. A silent soliloquy--that is, silent speaking--is precisely on a par with a silent trumpet solo, for example, or silent thunder. A poet may say:

       Heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard

            Are sweeter; therefore, ye soft pipes, play on;

       Not to the sensual ear, but, more endeared,

            Pipe to the spirit ditties of no tone;...

               (Keats, Ode to a Grecian Urn)

But there are in fact no unhearable melodies, no ears other than the "sensual," no ditties of no tone.

What those who speak of silent discourse have in mind is, no doubt, the fact that interlaced with our thinking of or about things is a great deal of imaging of linguistic entities. (This is especially true of academics or intellectuals in general, because of their great concern with expression of thought. Probably an adequate phenomenology of thinking would exhibit great contrast between them and other classes of persons precisely at the relation between thinking and degree of activity in imaging linguistic entities and events.) But imaging a word is not using a word, any more than imaging a horse is using a horse. Moreover, imaging a word, phrase, or sentence is not producing or perceiving a word, phrase, or sentence any more than imaging a horse is producing or perceiving--or otherwise 'having'--a horse. To image a linguistic sequence is not to have it in a special sort of place--the mind--nor is it to have a special sort of linguistic sequence. To image is to exemplify a certain sort of thinking or intentional state, and a sort which does have interesting relationships with other kinds of thinking. But there is no reason at all to suppose that all kinds of thinking necessarily involve or are accompanied by this kind of thinking (imaging) directed upon language segments. And if there were, it still would not follow that all thinking requires language, since this kind of thinking about language segments is not itself language at all. Nor does it require any <130> language present in order for it to come to pass, since intentional inexistence applies to mental events when language segments are the objects, as well as when sticks and stones and animals are.

Having considered a reason for rejecting the proposition that human beings always think in language, let us now consider whether they ever do. In fact, the difficulty is not, as Smart (above) and others have thought, in seeing how one can think without language, but in seeing how one would think with it. Thinking with or in language must consist in doing something with symbols, and so necessarily involves doing something to them--e.g., producing, altering, or perceiving them. If we would do something with the knife (e.g., cut the bread), we must do something to the knife, (e.g., clasp it in our hands). But, as we have seen, thinking occurs where nothing at all is being done to or with signs, there not being any signs in these cases. The power or act of having or changing t-states--that is, the power or act of thinking--is, then, not a power or act of having or altering linguistic symbols. (It is not, in fact, a power of doing anything with or in anything at all. The profound difference in kinds of powers and acts involved here is what Wittgenstein calls attention to in the last sentence of (3) above.) Thought is, of course, practical, in that it exercises an influence upon, or makes some difference in, the world of sense particulars. But it alone is not capable of acting with the sorts of particulars used in linguistic behavior as its immediate instruments. It is just this incapacity which makes it impossible for the advocates of thinking-in-language to give any account of the mechanisms or the 'how' by which the words in which we, allegedly, think are produced, manipulated, and gotten rid of--though they must be produced (or stored and hauled out), manipulated, and, in some sense, gotten rid of, if we are to think with and in them as our tools or instruments.

Merely to ask the question of how, in detail, this is done in the course of thinking reveals, I believe, the absurdity of 'thinking in language'. Mere thinking can do nothing to signs which might be used in a language, and hence it can do nothing with such signs, or in the act of modifying the conditions of such signs. It is absurd to suppose that one can do x with y without in some way bringing about a change in the condition, state, relations, or properties of y. It is this and only this that I put by saying that it is absurd to suppose that one can do something with y while doing nothing to y.

If it is replied that, of course, the mind or thought does not do these things, but that when we write, speak, hear, see, and otherwise relate to actual words in the actual employment of language, we then are thinking, with bodily parts managing the symbols involved, then it <131> must be pointed out that, while we may indeed also be thinking in such cases, we are not simply thinking. The total event here, to which language certainly is essential, is not thinking. Correct use of language can even occur, as has been pointed out by Wittgenstein, without the occurrence of any peculiarly relevant t-states. On the other hand, thinking does occur without the use of hands, mouth, ears, eyes, fingers in any appropriately relevant manner. Hence, what can only occur by the use of these is not the same as thinking, though it may somehow involve or influence thinking.

Smart remarks in (7) that, when he thinkingly wrote the sentence, "Certain kinds of thinking are pieces of intelligent talking to oneself," he could "no more do the 'thinking' part without the talking (or writing) part than a man can do the being graceful part of walking apart from the walking." This may be true of thinkingly writing the sentence (whatever that means). But it does not follow that one cannot think that certain kinds of thinking are pieces of intelligent talking to oneself without the use of language, though Smart clearly thinks that it does. Of course one cannot thinkingly write without writing. But that is nothing to the point of whether or not we can and do think with or without words. Also, the comparison to graceful walking is not apt. We do, as above shown, sometimes think without words or symbols, while no cases of grace without behavior are known.

Now it is very certainly true that some processes clearly involving thinking as described above depend for their occurrence upon linguistic behavior and the sensible signs which it involves, for example, the processes of learning algebra or the history of the Basques, or learning how to counsel emotionally upset persons. But it is to be noted that these are not themselves processes of thinking, but rather are extremely complex processes involving all kinds of events and entities other than language and other than thinking--e.g., feelings, perceptions, buildings, other persons, days and nights, books, and so on. None of these processes is a process of thinking; and for that reason alone it is invalid to infer from them that thinking is linguistic behavior, or that one thinks with language. What is essential to things or events of a certain sort must be shown essential to them taken by themselves, not in combination with many other things. With reference to the involved processes in question, it might be more appropriate (though it would still be wrong) to say--as some have said in recent years--that we live in or with language. Nevertheless, it is certain that some kind of dependence relation--probably similar to feedback mechanisms--exists between linguistic processes and their sensuous signs, on the one hand, and certain sequences of t-states on the other. What, exactly, this relation <132> of dependence is continues to be veiled by, among other things, a priori assumptions about what thinking and language must be and do. One such assumption is that which holds thinking essentially to be an operation with signs or symbols, or doing something with--or in--linguistic processes or entities.

The view that we (necessarily) think without language is, today, regarded as so outlandish as not to merit serious consideration. But this is not due to a lack of arguments to support it. My object here has been to focus upon certain arguments purporting to show the absurdity of thinking in language. The main points in these arguments are: Thinking does occur without any accompanying language whatsoever, and thus shows itself not to be a power or act of managing linguistic signs, once it is clear what such a sign is. Thinking, as distinct from behavioral processes involving it, can do nothing to signs or symbols, and hence can do nothing with them.


NOTES

  1. See for example, Ramsey's Foundations of Mathematics, p. 138, and Kneale's remarks in Feigl and Sellars, Readings in Philosophical Analysis, p. 42. Return to text.
  2. See S. Morris Engel, "Thought and Language," Dialogue, Vol. 3, 1964, 160-170; Jerome Shaffer, "Recent Work on the Mind-Body Problem," American Philosophical Quarterly, Vol. II, 1965, esp. p. 83; R. Kirk, "Rationality Without Language," Mind, 1967, pp. 369-368; G. Ryle, "A Puzzling Element in the Notion of Thinking," in Studies in the Philosophy of Thought and Action, P. F. Strawson, ed., (Oxford: 1968), pp. 7-23. Interesting remarks on the issues here are also found in Bruce Aune's Knowledge, Mind and Nature, chap. VIII and H. H. Price's Thinking and Experience, Chap. X.  See also Wm. James, "Thought Before Language; A Deaf Mute's Recollections," Mind, Vol. I, 1892; and see Wittgenstein's comments on this in Philosophical Investigations, No. 342. Return to text.
  3. I use only think here, for simplicity; but think that and other structures of such intentional states (and sequences thereof) might also be mentioned. Specifically, I would also wish to hold that instances of thinking that, in the sense of inferring or puzzling something out, occur in the absence of appropriate linguistic entities or activities. Return to text.


TOPICS: Philosophy
KEYWORDS: consciousness; dallaswillard; epistemology; faithandphilosophy; godsgravesglyphs; intelligence; intention; intentionality; language; linguistics; metaphysics; mind; ontology; psychology; semantics; semasiology; semiotics; sense; thinking; thought; willard
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To: Hank Kerchief
Thank you, I agree with "all that is, the way it is" (comma, mine). But Webster worked, too.
501 posted on 05/26/2003 8:17:10 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: Alamo-Girl
And as it has been said, "All truth is God's truth."
502 posted on 05/26/2003 8:18:11 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: unspun
Thank you so much for your posts and for sharing your views! Our concept of "all that there is" is probably very close.
503 posted on 05/26/2003 8:22:40 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; unspun
If I turn to an autonomist or objectivist, evidently “reality” is all that rationally exists in a mortal sense.

Why do you make up your own version of what others believe?

As alread stated, the autonomist defines reality as, "all that is, the way it is."

The objectivist defines reality thus: "Reality is that which exists: the unreal does not exist; the unreal is merely that negation of existence which is in the content of a human consciousness when it attempts to abandon reason." (Ayn Rand, from The New Intellectual, pp. 126)

These definitions agree. The only difference is, the objectivist version goes on to point out, so-called other version of "reality" are attempts to make "what isn't" real, (or "what is" unreal) as in those versions you suggested; naturalist, mystic, platonic, physicist, and Christian, which are all the result of abondoning reason.

(I think you are wrong about the Christian version, however. There is no reason why a Christian would not agree with the autonomist definition of reality.)

Hank

504 posted on 05/26/2003 9:28:24 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: Alamo-Girl
If I turn to a mystic, “reality” may include thought as substantive force and hence, a part of “reality.”

How could it be labeled as mystic if everything we do involves thinking and thoughts? All the options you listed, from metaphysical to Christian, involve thoughts. If humans are a substantive force, then thought are, as well, because thoughts impel or inspire people to do things and some things we do last well beyond our lifetimes and can have major impacts on the reality of others.

505 posted on 05/26/2003 9:46:27 AM PDT by Consort
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To: Alamo-Girl
...and, if we combine the six categories you listed, maybe we will be closer to a truer definition of reality. Any Theory of Everything would have to include.........everything.
506 posted on 05/26/2003 9:50:27 AM PDT by Consort
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To: Hank Kerchief; betty boop; unspun
Thank you so much for your corrections and clarifications! I still assert that both the autonomist and objectivist meaning of "reality" is constructed on "reason" but nevertheless shall restate them below with your definitions. Please note that on the Christian entry, I speak only for myself, not for all Christian points of view.

Indeed, I personally agree with betty boop that “reality” exists before it is discovered, observed or measured. However, I do condition the definition of the word “reality” to what a person believes because - IMHO – it would help the discussion to recognize the differences .

If I turn to a metaphysical naturalist, “reality” is all that exists in nature.

If I turn to an autonomist “reality” is all that is, the way it is; if I turn to an objectivist “reality” is that which exists. Hank observes that these two definitions agree except that “the objectivist version goes on to point out, so-called other versions of “reality” are attempts to make “what isn’t” real, (or “what is” unreal)

Note: I had originally said that If I turn to an autonomist or objectivist, evidently “reality” is all that rationally exists in a mortal sense.

If I turn to a mystic, “reality” may include thought as substantive force and hence, a part of “reality.”

If I turn to Plato, reality may include redness, chairness – but if I turn to another mathematician/philosopher, these things are not reality but language.

If I turn to some physicists, “reality” may the illusion of quantum mechanics.

If I turn to myself – a Christian – “reality” is God’s will and unknowable in its fullness.


507 posted on 05/26/2003 9:50:54 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; Hank Kerchief; Consort
Thanks for workin' wit' us here, A-G.

As your assessment of reality for the Christian asserts, we cannot know at least now, everything about anything, but we can know in part and while we cannot then fully comprehend, we can understand.

Maybe a fit term for your variations on reality per the kind of person who does the regarding of it, would be their degree of comprehension (which people will shorten into "comprehension").
508 posted on 05/26/2003 10:06:59 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: Consort
Thank you so very much for your posts!

Indeed, I would think that any “theory of everything” would have to include everything. But when I look at the substantive efforts, it all seems to be (not surprisingly) epistemologically materialist:

Theory of Everything – Max Tegmark

Algorithmic Theories of Everything - Jürgen Schmidhuber

Theories of Everything – Iaian Stewart

Your objection to the label “mystic” is a case in point of the need to recognize and respect our differences. I have been tagged with the label “mystic” several times because to me ”all that there is” is far more than the natural realm, power of faith, etc.

I intended the target of that definition to be those who believe that reality can also be the thought itself. This could include collective consciousness, physic phenomenon, remote healing, telepathy, etc.

509 posted on 05/26/2003 10:08:08 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: unspun
Thank you so much for your reply!

Indeed, I think you and I could easily agree that the differences are a matter of comprehension.

However, some believe that they already know much of that which is and whatever else there is will be revealed by future scientific endeavor. This is a fine line between the metaphysical materialist and the metaphysical physicalist, but shutting the door on possibilities changes the domain of "reality" for the person who shuts it.

510 posted on 05/26/2003 10:16:14 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Hank Kerchief
Will this do for an outline of this epistemology?

sentience -> sensation -> amoeba
perception -> percepts -> marmosets
conception -> concepts -> republicans

May I assume that these are inclusive downward? ie, that republicans have sensations? May I assume that organic beings all operate on sensation/precepts/concepts in order to make decisions that might aid in the fight to survive, by making choices that might as easily be arrived at using the precepts of formal logic?

Just to try to be clear about this last question...may I, or may I not assume, that reactions to sensations are capable of providing survival behavior outside the reach of such formal precept-rich environments as grammar, symbolism, or logic?

511 posted on 05/26/2003 10:19:45 AM PDT by donh (/)
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To: Hank Kerchief
The objectivist defines reality thus: "Reality is that which exists: the unreal does not exist; the unreal is merely that negation of existence which is in the content of a human consciousness when it attempts to abandon reason." (Ayn Rand, from The New Intellectual, pp. 126)

Much more accurate to say: ...which is in the context of a human when he attempts to abandon any of the aspects of how a human may regard reality.

These definitions agree. The only difference is, the objectivist version goes on to point out, so-called other version of "reality" are attempts to make "what isn't" real, (or "what is" unreal) as in those versions you suggested; naturalist, mystic, platonic, physicist, and Christian, which are all the result of abondoning reason.

And it is the opposite of an attempt to abandon reason, to acknowledge (as has just been attested) that there is more to truth, than what we may find through reason only. It is an abandonment of reason to assert that only exists which we can reason out. (And one can substitute any aspect of man's ability to regard reality, for the word "reason" in that last sentence.)

(I think you are wrong about the Christian version, however. There is no reason why a Christian would not agree with the autonomist definition of reality.)

...that, especially since God is autonomous and in Christ, we take part in the autonomous nature, as Peter related. That does require a thorough abandonment for us, but in turn we are given "the life that is true life" with a whole identity (a whole identity, plus). In Christ we are most real, i.e., most relational with all that reality is. This is not an autonomy of the self, it is an autonomy of relationship and identity in the Autonomous.

512 posted on 05/26/2003 10:24:48 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: Alamo-Girl
God does not exist solely in the physical realm.

You've implied that God exists in the physical realm.

The reason is that space/time is part of creation (it is created as the universe expands) – it therefore is not something in which the Creator exists.

You've implied that God does not exist in the physical realm.

My point in observing that God does not exist in reality leaves open the possibility for the existence of a God that transcends reality, a God much like that revered in Judaism.

Isn't it neat to live in a country where people are not burned at the stake for expressing thoughts like this?

513 posted on 05/26/2003 10:26:18 AM PDT by thinktwice
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To: Hank Kerchief; cornelis; unspun; Alamo-Girl; tortoise; Consort
This is necessary becasue a concept identifies what is, as it is, independent of anyone's whim's, whishes, desires, thoughts, or concepts. The concept doesn't do anything to any aspect of reality, it enables us to identify and recognize it.

It's untrue that the concept "doesn't do anything to any aspect of reality." It very much affects how we interpret reality. Reality -- "what is" -- may well be "independent of anyone's whims, wishes, desires, thoughts, or concepts." But I doubt we can say the same about concepts.

Concepts aren't pure mirrors, limpidly imaging reality without distortion. They usually carry some "extra weight" of assumption and attitude that is the result of having been formulated by a specific person who sees and experiences the world in the particular way he does.

The upshot is that the concept and its referrent in the world are not identical things at all. If we regard reality as the test of the true, then one of the pair is "true" (i.e., the "referrent in the world") and the other, an approximation of truth (i.e., the "concept"). To then use the approximation to test the true seems like getting the problem backward. To me at least. FWIW.

514 posted on 05/26/2003 10:29:19 AM PDT by betty boop
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To: unspun
Maybe a fit term for your variations on reality per the kind of person who does the regarding of it, would be their degree of comprehension...

Yes, and maybe our degree of comprehension might be used as a criteria to determine the degree of responsibility for our actions by those who will eventually judge us.

515 posted on 05/26/2003 10:29:29 AM PDT by Consort
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To: Alamo-Girl; All
However, some believe that they already know much of that which is and whatever else there is will be revealed by future scientific endeavor. This is a fine line between the metaphysical materialist and the metaphysical physicalist, but shutting the door on possibilities changes the domain of "reality" for the person who shuts it.

And the mistake for this scientism is of the very kind of mistake of the mystic. Both tend to ignore certain aspects of human regard of reality, for the sake of an exaggerated capability of gaining knowledge and/or understanding in their chosen way.

516 posted on 05/26/2003 10:29:43 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: unspun
I'm quite confident that this reminder occured to me not "in" language, though I may have quickly applied language to it and then dealt with the thought through language, in which case I would be thinking linguistically... thinking through language, but not thinking "in" language (language is not the stuff of the thought.)

Well said, unspun. Though not "the stuff of the thought," language (symbolization) is indispensable to analysis and communication of thought.

517 posted on 05/26/2003 10:35:08 AM PDT by betty boop
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To: Consort
Yes, and maybe our degree of comprehension might be used as a criteria to determine the degree of responsibility for our actions by those who will eventually judge us.

So I am told and gracious that is.

518 posted on 05/26/2003 10:35:49 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; unspun; Consort
Before we go any further, I think we need to establish what it is you are trying to say. We may very well be talking at cross-purposes, and I may be misunderstanding your purpose.

What I have been addressing all along is what we mean by reality, when we say, "that's not real," or, "this is true if in reality it is actually that way."

The term reality is usually used in this more abstract form, to mean, as the autonomists defines it, all that is, the way it is, or, in other words, all that acutally is in whatever way it is, without regard to what there actually is.

Is their a God? If there is, then reality includes God, else it does not. Is there another realm other than material existence? If there is, reality includes that, else it does not. To say reality is all there is the way it is, does not say anything about any actual formulation of what actually exists or does not, only that reality includes all that actually exists and excludes all that does not actually exist, whatever those existents actually are.

I have the impression you are using the term reality in the less abstract meaning, to indicate what actually exists. Your examples, to illustrate, seem to indicate not what we mean by reality, but what reality, as an acutality, consists of.

These are two different concepts. Both are legitimate, and both are necessary. The first, the more abstract concept, is required to set the limits of what can be included in the second, less abstract, "what actually exists" concept.

I think you have slipped between these two idea, or really have in mind the second meaning, or at least some of what you are saying pertains to the second meaning.

What do you think?

Hank

519 posted on 05/26/2003 10:36:06 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: betty boop
It's untrue that the concept "doesn't do anything to any aspect of reality." It very much affects how we interpret reality.

The act of interpretation means the use of reason, and reason is the standard for knowing reality, not interpreting reality.

I wouldn't recommend the interpretation of reality.

520 posted on 05/26/2003 10:43:52 AM PDT by thinktwice
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