Posted on 05/23/2003 3:59:51 PM PDT by unspun
| The Absurdity of 'Thinking in Language' | |||||
| This paper has been read to the University of Southern California philosophy group and the Boston 1972 meeting of the American Philosophical Association, as well as to the Houston meeting of the Southwestern Philosophical Society. Appeared in The Southwestern Journal of Philosophy, IV(1973), pp. 125-132. Numbers in "<>" refer to this journal. | |||||
|
|
|||||
|
|||||
I didn't agree with the explanation.
No it didn't, Hank. At least not the question I was asking.
Here's my "take-away" from what you wrote. You say that concepts are not just abstractions from reality, but integrations of various aspects of it. That is, they are good things that "add value." Fine so far as it goes, in principle. But where I think I see you actually applying concepts, the feeling I get is that you regard them as "ultimates," to which actual instances in reality are subject in order to be qualified, to be known, as members of the "set" the concept denotes. Which again, is fine -- as far as it goes.
BUT the downside is -- there is nothing in the (abstract, integrating) concept "BIRD" -- which does allow you to "first-pass" filter real objects for qualification as members of the denoted set -- that gives you any help whatever in discriminating between a song bird and a hawk. Concepts as such are limited in that regard; they tend to focus on the generic, but are fairly useless when it comes to dealing with the particularity of things they putatively describe or apply to.
To try to put it another way, if you resist the idea that "reality is always richer than the concepts that can be derived (or abstracted) from it," then the only alternative argument I see is that concepts are reductions of reality intending to stand in for it.
And that makes for a pretty good definition of doctrinal thinking, IMHO.
That is why it is better to realize we have "considerations," rather than only "concepts" in our minds. That is much kinder to reality and to my part in it, it seems clear to me. ;-`
But then again, one cannot tear objectivity away from subjectivity.
Of course not. I never suggested anything like that. What I said was if I draw conclusions about that which I perceive, it is my reasoning that is wrong, not the perception. If I beleive the light is green (when it is red), because I am color blind, it is not the grey color I see that made me think that, it has to be some assumption about where the "green" light is supposed to appear, for example. This only means, perceptions do not interpret themselves, they are only perceptions. Any conclusions we draw from them are a matter of reason.
Again, logic alone is not enough to "know" the truth about reality. Without true sense data, empirical sense data, logic is blind.
Really. How do you know that? I mean, without logic?
You could have saved yourself some trouble. Webster is the last place I would look for informatin about epistemology.
Please see my views on concepts in post #386
It's important to remember that our debate ...
I'm not debating. Both betty boop and Alamo-Girl will assure you I am only here spreading my doctrine.
If, as you believe, all we can know about the ultimate human objective can, and must, only be known using logic/reason, I think it would be useful to the discussion to examine that, in your own knowledge, and see if it is true.
I'll be glad to discuss it. I already know it is true.
Hank
Well tortoise, we can also see this ultimate substrate in divine Revelation, together with the "symbols" it engenders -- believe it or not. But I do know what you're talking about here. Energy, "the ultimate substrate" of the theoretical physicists is what Christians call Life. Everything that is comes from that source.
BTW, I truly enjoy your posts, tortoise. It's rare to encounter such a meticulously analytical mind with so many perceptive and provocative things to say. Thanks!
Rational/volitional consciousness.
I do not mean to be cryptic here, but the question actually requires a much larger explanation than is possible here. For me to answer it fully would require me to explain my entire ontology, to demonstrate the place of consciousness in the heirarchy of existence, which makes it capable of apprehending material existence (that which consciousness is conscious of) but differentiated from it, as that which is conscious of material existence.
The concept is not actually a difficult one, but complex, and one for which most people have very little background on which to build. I have discovered the concepts always have to be built from the ground up. There is not space here to do that.
Hank
But the abstracted thought is itself as "real" as the object it is related to. My guess is that you would concur. And so it is permissible to say "it is reality itself." It is not permissible to say it is the actual the object: trees do not grow in our brain. But our knowledge of the tree is real and therefore concepts and language constitute reality. This clarifies a needful distinction between what is real and what is sometimes called actual.
The exclusion of reality from concepts and language is Parmenidean, not realist. Correct me if I'm wrong.
There is another way it must be real, although "true" can be used here as well. For the abstraction to retain a relation to the object, this abstraction participates in the existence of the object. In Aristotelian terms, the object is the content determining cause of my knowledge. This sort of absraction leaves behind the material-- at least. It is not the same abstraction used in art, which will often stresses incommensurable difference and is anti-mimetic.
I suppose that is to be expected, since your words represent things, and my words represent concepts, some of which are for things, others for relationships, qualities, events, etc.
It is unlikely we will agree on much.
Hank
Maybe we do agree on much. I know that my explanation may be wrong. Do you know that your explanation may be wrong, as well?
This is an example of what is wrong with attempting to discuss very broad subjects, like epistemology, in a piecemeal fashion like this. I did not say concepts are either or both abstractions or integrations, but the process of forming them uses abstraction and integration. The result of the process is the concept, but a concept is an identification, in most cases, of a class or category existents. But a concept does not just identify them as a random collection of things, but means something specific about them, that is, their nature which is what makes them members of the same class or category, which is what the essential qualities do.
A concept does not "add" anything, it only identifies what is already so in reality, but could not be apprehended otherwise.
What a concept does is enable us to identify things, like birds, the to distinguish between variations of them, like song birds and hawks, which we could not do without them.
Concepts as such are limited in that regard; they tend to focus on the generic, but are fairly useless when it comes to dealing with the particularity of things they putatively describe or apply to.
No, concepts focus on the actual nature of existents so their similarity, differences, and relationships (their real qualities) can be identified. This is all we can know about any aspect of reality. Concepts enable us to do it.
To try to put it another way, if you resist the idea that "reality is always richer than the concepts that can be derived (or abstracted) from it ..."
But concepts are not "abstracted" from it, they identify it, so we can know it, which otherwise we cannot...
then the only alternative argument I see is that concepts are reductions of reality intending to stand in for it.
But what is this word you keep using, "reality." Does it mean anything? Does it just "stand in" for what you mean, or does it represent a concept, a concept for what you mean by "reality?"
Hank
Nope.
In fact, he was distinguishing the conveying of ideas, which requires language, from the purer thinking process itself, which my utilize symbols as tools of consideration, and which mmay consider some things more directly. He was drilling into the essence of what thinking is, from what I see here in the living room.
Agreed, unspun. And I like the way you laid out the self-analysis:
1. a sense of the circumstances and players (persons, variables, etc.) I'm thinking about (containment)
2. Feelings
3. considerations (with or without words or pictures)
4. Symbols
5. focused reasoning (which uses symbols more strongly, but not at all thoroughly, as one who is communicating)
6. a sense of result
7. Determinations
(3) and (5) are of particular interest to me. It seems that considerations includes both things that are known and things that are understood. For some strange reason, it seems the former is often unaccompanied by any type of symbolization, where the latter usually is. For instance, I could truthfully say that I know Mr. X is drinking himself to death without understanding the reason why hes doing that. My knowledge comes about as a simple recognition based on my relationship with Mr. X. It is immediate, or unmediated by symbols. But if ever I did find myself in a position to learn Mr. Xs reason for drinking himself to death, I wouldnt really be in firm possession of this knowledge, wouldnt be able to understand it, if I were unable to symbolize this information in such a way as to explain it intelligibly to self-reflective consciousness. Which gets us into (5) focused reasoning, which seems to be a process that inevitably uses language symbols.
Do you think it would be useful to draw distinctions between and knowing and understanding?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.