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The Absurdity of 'Thinking in Language'
the author's site ^ | 1972 | Dallas Willard

Posted on 05/23/2003 3:59:51 PM PDT by unspun

The Absurdity of 'Thinking in Language'
This paper has been read to the University of Southern California philosophy group and the Boston 1972 meeting of the American Philosophical Association, as well as to the Houston meeting of the Southwestern Philosophical Society. Appeared in The Southwestern Journal of Philosophy, IV(1973), pp. 125-132. Numbers in "<>" refer to this journal.

Among the principal assumptions of major portions of philosophy in recent decades have been: (1) That philosophy somehow consists of (some sort of) logic, and (2) that logic is a study of and theory about (some sort of) language. There, of course, follows from these a third assumption: (3) That philosophy is a study of and theory about (some sort of) language--though this implication should not be taken as representing any phase of the historical development of recent philosophizing. Instead of listing these three points as assumptions, it would probably be more correct to regard them as categories or complexes of assumptions; or perhaps, more vaguely still, as 'tendencies' or proclivities of recent philosophical thinking. But precision of these points need not be put in issue here, as this paper does not seek any large-scale resolution of the problem area in question.

The aim here is to examine only one proposition which plays a role in the clearly existent tendencies referred to: Namely, the proposition that we think in or with language. I hope to show, first, that we do not always think in or with language; and then, second, that the very conception of thinking in or with language involves an absurdity. What implications this has for broader philosophical assumptions or tendencies will not be dealt with here, though the implications in question seem to me to be extremely important ones.

That human beings think in language is explicitly stated in such diverse places as ordinary newspapers, the more sophisticated popular magazines and journals, and serious discourse in the humanities and the social sciences, as well as in the technical writings of philosophers. To prove this broad range of consensus would be idle; but, in order to have the philosophical context clearly before us, we may give a few brief quotations. <126> 

     (1) Man, like every living creature, thinks unceasingly, but does not know it: the thinking which becomes conscious of itself is only the smallest part thereof. And, we may say, the worst part:--for this conscious thinking alone is done in words, that is to say, in the symbols for communication, by means of which the origin of consciousness is revealed. (Nietzsche, Joyful Wisdom, sub-sec. # 354)

     (2) Let no one be contemptuous of symbols! A good deal depends upon a practical selection of them. Furthermore, their value is not diminished by the fact that after much practice, we no longer really need to call forth a symbol, we do not need to speak out loud in order to think. The fact remains that we think in words or, when not in words, then in mathematical or other symbols. (Frege, Mind, Vol. 73, p. 156)

     (3) It is misleading then to talk of thinking as of a 'mental activity'. We may say that thinking is essentially the activity of operating with signs. This activity is performed by the hand, when we think by writing; by the mouth and larynx, when we think by speaking; and if we think by imagining signs or pictures, I can give you no agent that thinks. If then you say that in such cases the mind thinks, I would only draw your attention to the fact that you are using a metaphor, that here the mind is an agent in a different sense from that in which the hand can be said to be an agent in writing. (Wittgenstein, Blue Book, pp. 6-7)

     (4) ... The woof and warp of all thought and all research is symbols, and the life of thought and science is the life inherent in symbols; so that it is wrong to say that a good language is important to good thought, merely; for it is of the essence of it. (C. S. Peirce, Collected Papers, II, p. 129)

     (5) Words only matter because words are what we think with. (H. H. Price, Aristotelian Society, Suppl. Vol. XIX, p. 7)

     (6) Theorizing is an activity which most people can and normally do conduct in silence. They articulate in sentences the theories that they construct, but they do not most of the time speak these sentences out loud. They say them to themselves.... Much of our ordinary thinking is conducted in internal monologue or silent soliloquy, usually accompanied by an internal cinematograph-show of visual imagery.... This trick of talking to oneself in silence is acquired neither quickly nor without effort.... (Ryle, Concept of Mind, p. 27. See also pp. 282-83 and 296-97) <127>

     (7)This helps to elucidate the well-known difficulty of thinking without words. Certain kinds of thinking are pieces of intelligent talking to oneself. Consider the way in which I 'thinkingly' wrote the last sentence. I can no more do the 'thinking' part without the talking (or writing) part than a man can do the being graceful part of walking apart from the walking (or some equivalent activity). (J.J.C. Smart, Philosophy and Scientific Realism, p. 89)

These quotations will suffice to establish the context within which philosophers speak of thinking in language (or with language). Many other quotations could be added from the literature.1 It is not assumed here that the persons quoted all occupy the same position with reference to the relationship between thought and language. Yet it would be interesting to see what any of these thinkers, or others who suppose that human beings think in language, could save of their position from the critique which follows.

Uneasiness about the conception of thinking in or with language has been expressed by a number of writers, but only over limited aspects of it.2 Here we shall consider arguments which purport to call the conception into question entirely and in principle. First, consider a reason for rejecting the view that we always think in language. It consists in the fact that thinking often occurs without the production, manipulation, or perception of sense-perceptible signs, without which there is no use of language. Such occurrences often provoke offers of 'A penny for your thoughts.'

Thinking: Whatever we may decide to call them, and however it is that we are conscious of them, there are intentional states of persons, more or less fixed or fleeting, which do not require for their obtaining that what they are about or of be perceived by, or be impinging causally upon, the person involved. In order to think of3 Henry the Eighth, <128> of the first auto one owned, of the Pythagorean theorem, or of the Mississippi River, it is not required that they should disturb my nervous system. Such states (t-states) of persons are often called 'thoughts', especially in contrast with 'perceptions', and being in such a state is one of the things more commonly called 'thinking'. One no more needs to be going through a change of such states in order to be thinking, than he needs to be changing his bodily position in order to be sitting or lying or sleeping. Rarely if ever--as is alleged in the case of mystic contemplation--are these t-states unchanging. Usually they flow, at varying rates, intermingled with person states of many sorts, governed by such transitional structures as inference, goal orientation, objective structures given in perception or in other ways, and elemental association of 'ideas', among others. In what follows, we shall use 'thinking' to cover both the single t-state and the flow of such states, without regard to how intermingled with other person states.

Language: Sense perceptible signs or symbols are an essential constituent of language. It is always false to say that language is present or in use where no signs are present or in use. And, whatever else a sign may be, it is something which is apprehendable via its sensible qualities. That is, it is something which can be either seen, heard, felt, tasted or smelled. Moreover, the use of language requires some level of actual sensuous apprehension of the signs which are in use on the occasion. (Confusion or distortion of this sensuous feedback can render a subject incapable of writing or speaking; and, of course, without perception of the sign-sequences emitted, one cannot understand the person emitting language.)

Now cases can be produced almost at will where thinking occurs without language being present or in use. This, of course, is something which everyone--including the proponent of thinking-in-language--very well knows. It is these cases which, together with the assumption that we always think in language, create what in (7) was called "the well-known difficulty of thinking without words." If, as in (3), "thinking is essentially the activity of operating with signs," then when there are no signs--and when, consequently, the means by which we produce, manipulate, or perceive signs are not functioning--we do have a difficulty. In fact, a difficulty so severe that it amounts to a proof that thinking is not essentially the activity of operating with signs, and that often we think entirely without language. One cannot operate with signs where there are no signs. <129> 

As the above quotations indicate, the most common move made to save 'thinking in language' at this point is the shift to 'silent soliloquy,' as in (6), or to 'pieces of intelligent talking to oneself,' as in (7). These are latter-day shades of John Watson's 'sub-vocal language.' Of course one can talk to oneself or write to onself. But talking and writing to oneself require the production and perception of sensuous signs just as much as talking and writing to another. The realization of this is what drives the thinking-in-language advocate to silent soliloquy or to nonvocal speaking--the written counterpart of which would be invisible writing. That is, they are driven to flat absurdities. A silent soliloquy--that is, silent speaking--is precisely on a par with a silent trumpet solo, for example, or silent thunder. A poet may say:

       Heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard

            Are sweeter; therefore, ye soft pipes, play on;

       Not to the sensual ear, but, more endeared,

            Pipe to the spirit ditties of no tone;...

               (Keats, Ode to a Grecian Urn)

But there are in fact no unhearable melodies, no ears other than the "sensual," no ditties of no tone.

What those who speak of silent discourse have in mind is, no doubt, the fact that interlaced with our thinking of or about things is a great deal of imaging of linguistic entities. (This is especially true of academics or intellectuals in general, because of their great concern with expression of thought. Probably an adequate phenomenology of thinking would exhibit great contrast between them and other classes of persons precisely at the relation between thinking and degree of activity in imaging linguistic entities and events.) But imaging a word is not using a word, any more than imaging a horse is using a horse. Moreover, imaging a word, phrase, or sentence is not producing or perceiving a word, phrase, or sentence any more than imaging a horse is producing or perceiving--or otherwise 'having'--a horse. To image a linguistic sequence is not to have it in a special sort of place--the mind--nor is it to have a special sort of linguistic sequence. To image is to exemplify a certain sort of thinking or intentional state, and a sort which does have interesting relationships with other kinds of thinking. But there is no reason at all to suppose that all kinds of thinking necessarily involve or are accompanied by this kind of thinking (imaging) directed upon language segments. And if there were, it still would not follow that all thinking requires language, since this kind of thinking about language segments is not itself language at all. Nor does it require any <130> language present in order for it to come to pass, since intentional inexistence applies to mental events when language segments are the objects, as well as when sticks and stones and animals are.

Having considered a reason for rejecting the proposition that human beings always think in language, let us now consider whether they ever do. In fact, the difficulty is not, as Smart (above) and others have thought, in seeing how one can think without language, but in seeing how one would think with it. Thinking with or in language must consist in doing something with symbols, and so necessarily involves doing something to them--e.g., producing, altering, or perceiving them. If we would do something with the knife (e.g., cut the bread), we must do something to the knife, (e.g., clasp it in our hands). But, as we have seen, thinking occurs where nothing at all is being done to or with signs, there not being any signs in these cases. The power or act of having or changing t-states--that is, the power or act of thinking--is, then, not a power or act of having or altering linguistic symbols. (It is not, in fact, a power of doing anything with or in anything at all. The profound difference in kinds of powers and acts involved here is what Wittgenstein calls attention to in the last sentence of (3) above.) Thought is, of course, practical, in that it exercises an influence upon, or makes some difference in, the world of sense particulars. But it alone is not capable of acting with the sorts of particulars used in linguistic behavior as its immediate instruments. It is just this incapacity which makes it impossible for the advocates of thinking-in-language to give any account of the mechanisms or the 'how' by which the words in which we, allegedly, think are produced, manipulated, and gotten rid of--though they must be produced (or stored and hauled out), manipulated, and, in some sense, gotten rid of, if we are to think with and in them as our tools or instruments.

Merely to ask the question of how, in detail, this is done in the course of thinking reveals, I believe, the absurdity of 'thinking in language'. Mere thinking can do nothing to signs which might be used in a language, and hence it can do nothing with such signs, or in the act of modifying the conditions of such signs. It is absurd to suppose that one can do x with y without in some way bringing about a change in the condition, state, relations, or properties of y. It is this and only this that I put by saying that it is absurd to suppose that one can do something with y while doing nothing to y.

If it is replied that, of course, the mind or thought does not do these things, but that when we write, speak, hear, see, and otherwise relate to actual words in the actual employment of language, we then are thinking, with bodily parts managing the symbols involved, then it <131> must be pointed out that, while we may indeed also be thinking in such cases, we are not simply thinking. The total event here, to which language certainly is essential, is not thinking. Correct use of language can even occur, as has been pointed out by Wittgenstein, without the occurrence of any peculiarly relevant t-states. On the other hand, thinking does occur without the use of hands, mouth, ears, eyes, fingers in any appropriately relevant manner. Hence, what can only occur by the use of these is not the same as thinking, though it may somehow involve or influence thinking.

Smart remarks in (7) that, when he thinkingly wrote the sentence, "Certain kinds of thinking are pieces of intelligent talking to oneself," he could "no more do the 'thinking' part without the talking (or writing) part than a man can do the being graceful part of walking apart from the walking." This may be true of thinkingly writing the sentence (whatever that means). But it does not follow that one cannot think that certain kinds of thinking are pieces of intelligent talking to oneself without the use of language, though Smart clearly thinks that it does. Of course one cannot thinkingly write without writing. But that is nothing to the point of whether or not we can and do think with or without words. Also, the comparison to graceful walking is not apt. We do, as above shown, sometimes think without words or symbols, while no cases of grace without behavior are known.

Now it is very certainly true that some processes clearly involving thinking as described above depend for their occurrence upon linguistic behavior and the sensible signs which it involves, for example, the processes of learning algebra or the history of the Basques, or learning how to counsel emotionally upset persons. But it is to be noted that these are not themselves processes of thinking, but rather are extremely complex processes involving all kinds of events and entities other than language and other than thinking--e.g., feelings, perceptions, buildings, other persons, days and nights, books, and so on. None of these processes is a process of thinking; and for that reason alone it is invalid to infer from them that thinking is linguistic behavior, or that one thinks with language. What is essential to things or events of a certain sort must be shown essential to them taken by themselves, not in combination with many other things. With reference to the involved processes in question, it might be more appropriate (though it would still be wrong) to say--as some have said in recent years--that we live in or with language. Nevertheless, it is certain that some kind of dependence relation--probably similar to feedback mechanisms--exists between linguistic processes and their sensuous signs, on the one hand, and certain sequences of t-states on the other. What, exactly, this relation <132> of dependence is continues to be veiled by, among other things, a priori assumptions about what thinking and language must be and do. One such assumption is that which holds thinking essentially to be an operation with signs or symbols, or doing something with--or in--linguistic processes or entities.

The view that we (necessarily) think without language is, today, regarded as so outlandish as not to merit serious consideration. But this is not due to a lack of arguments to support it. My object here has been to focus upon certain arguments purporting to show the absurdity of thinking in language. The main points in these arguments are: Thinking does occur without any accompanying language whatsoever, and thus shows itself not to be a power or act of managing linguistic signs, once it is clear what such a sign is. Thinking, as distinct from behavioral processes involving it, can do nothing to signs or symbols, and hence can do nothing with them.


NOTES

  1. See for example, Ramsey's Foundations of Mathematics, p. 138, and Kneale's remarks in Feigl and Sellars, Readings in Philosophical Analysis, p. 42. Return to text.
  2. See S. Morris Engel, "Thought and Language," Dialogue, Vol. 3, 1964, 160-170; Jerome Shaffer, "Recent Work on the Mind-Body Problem," American Philosophical Quarterly, Vol. II, 1965, esp. p. 83; R. Kirk, "Rationality Without Language," Mind, 1967, pp. 369-368; G. Ryle, "A Puzzling Element in the Notion of Thinking," in Studies in the Philosophy of Thought and Action, P. F. Strawson, ed., (Oxford: 1968), pp. 7-23. Interesting remarks on the issues here are also found in Bruce Aune's Knowledge, Mind and Nature, chap. VIII and H. H. Price's Thinking and Experience, Chap. X.  See also Wm. James, "Thought Before Language; A Deaf Mute's Recollections," Mind, Vol. I, 1892; and see Wittgenstein's comments on this in Philosophical Investigations, No. 342. Return to text.
  3. I use only think here, for simplicity; but think that and other structures of such intentional states (and sequences thereof) might also be mentioned. Specifically, I would also wish to hold that instances of thinking that, in the sense of inferring or puzzling something out, occur in the absence of appropriate linguistic entities or activities. Return to text.


TOPICS: Philosophy
KEYWORDS: consciousness; dallaswillard; epistemology; faithandphilosophy; godsgravesglyphs; intelligence; intention; intentionality; language; linguistics; metaphysics; mind; ontology; psychology; semantics; semasiology; semiotics; sense; thinking; thought; willard
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To: unspun
Well, "mentally cloistered," because that is what anyone must be doing, to deny fundamental elements of one's own being.

Oh, Thanks for 'splainin' that to me, unspun! The statements of the "materialist" that he reports do not represent Barr's own view. He's basically just generalizing a common attitude or world-view of the "typical" scientific materialist. I thought perhaps you'd caught a sense (as I did) that Barr is a Roman Catholic, and that's where I thought you maybe got the "cloistered" from. He is a physics professor, but there's a hint of the Scholastic Doctors in his thought. (Which is why I suspect he's RC.)

Anyhoot, I've only just started his book (Modern Physics and Ancient Faith, 2003), maybe 60 pages into it. So far, it's most impressive! I'll probably post something from it in due course, so we can "kick around" his thesis -- that the latest physical discoveries (e.g., quantum mechanics, the "Big Bang", etc.), instead of taking us deeper into materialism and farther away from the Biblical account of origins, actually do the very reverse.

1,081 posted on 06/02/2003 1:59:10 PM PDT by betty boop (When people accept futility and the absurd as normal, the culture is decadent. -- Jacques Barzun)
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To: js1138
Thank you, js -- it's always a pleasure to hear from you. I do look forward to your posts!
1,082 posted on 06/02/2003 1:59:53 PM PDT by betty boop (When people accept futility and the absurd as normal, the culture is decadent. -- Jacques Barzun)
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To: Alamo-Girl; lockeliberty; unspun
Rather than falsely separating Christ from Truth by advising a person move away from Christ to seek (lower case) truth and ultimately find Him --- Christ is Truth, so whether you seek truth or Christ you will find both

Yes, A-G!!! One cannot separate Christ from Truth, for he is Truth, the Logos -- the Word. Which Word, as the essay on Eckhart points out -- being a Word -- is an appeal to the intellect. And men have intellect, for they are made in the image and likeness of God himself, Who (the essay says) unites absolute Being and absolute Intellect in Himself. The essay suggests that the human soul (including its "highest" aspect, intellect or mind) is absolutely rooted in God at its very ground. In this way, we mortals participate in the Being and Mind of God, in His Life and His Truth.... Christ is our mediator, savior, as well as "God of God, Light of Light, True God of True God," consubstantial with the "I Am That I Am," the Father -- inviting us to participate in relationship with Himself, the Son of God, and to lead us to be "sons of God" like unto Him.

1,083 posted on 06/02/2003 2:20:53 PM PDT by betty boop (When people accept futility and the absurd as normal, the culture is decadent. -- Jacques Barzun)
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To: betty boop
Anyhoot, I've only just started his book (Modern Physics and Ancient Faith, 2003), maybe 60 pages into it. So far, it's most impressive! I'll probably post something from it in due course, so we can "kick around" his thesis -- that the latest physical discoveries (e.g., quantum mechanics, the "Big Bang", etc.), instead of taking us deeper into materialism and farther away from the Biblical account of origins, actually do the very reverse.

Thanks for the thanks and for splainin' what was wrong with my splainin'. I tend to be a fairly slow reader (maybe too many flitting-to-ponderous thoughts to sort thru, along with the text;-) otherwise I can either scan and take divots out that catch my eye, or... when reading fast tend to miss things. (In first grade I had two books in whereas some of the girls had totals in the teens. Any Curious George fans here, BTW?) Maybe there was something else RC that spurred me a mite in that direction; your guess could be better than mine. Don't know what the connection is with their old ascetic inventors, BTW, but the best pretzels I've had were in town in an Amish area. Those pretzels are definitely not ascetic victuals!

That would be an interesting subject, though -- as is the link posted above by A-G. (I still haven't begun the Sheldrake doggie book yet.)

1,084 posted on 06/02/2003 2:36:51 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop
I haven't had much to add here, but I'd like to congratulate Alamo and Betty for running the most on-track threads on the forum.

What were we talking about, now?

1,085 posted on 06/02/2003 2:43:21 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: bondserv
Thanks for the Ping again unspun.

My profession is Data Communications training, and many of the protocols that are used to transfer Data over the internet are called Number Languages.

Our experience in training tells us that people think conceptually, and tend to lean to a combination of auditory and visual learning. There are a few people who are tactile learners and the hands on labs cements the ideas for them. Most people benefit from a combination of all three.

The best retention of information comes from when the student understands a concept and can integrate that concept with other concepts. The three learning types do not respond to language, but the language the instructor uses is a tool that drives the concept.

Therefore, in my opinion, language is the second step our minds take to convey concepts. It takes effort to come up with words to most precisely get across ideas. It is clear to me that language is only a tool that we and machines use to pass information i.e. set up and tear down a transfer of concepts (information).


Sorry for the belated reply, bondserv and thank you for this insightful observation...!
1,086 posted on 06/02/2003 3:12:33 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: William Terrell
1. Do we always think in language? 2. Do we ever think in language?

When I read these two questions, I had thoughts about them. They were not in words. They were just there. If I were to explain them to someone, it would probably take five minutes.

When I decided to communicate the thoughts, like I'm doing now, I then translated them into words using thought. Apparently when I use thought to interact to the outside world, I use it in words. When I'm recieving input from the world and evaluating it, I don't use words; I can't because the input I'm recieving is moving too fast.

When I'm thinking about a solution to a material problem, I use words sometimes, when there are distractions around or I'm trying to to wring implications out of a data item thats a symptom of the problem. Those seems to be the points where I start using thought instead of letting it flow. Reckon the above would have taken 5 minutes to communicate (including the time to put the words together)?


And thank you too, however belatedly, for your distinction between having and using thoughts.

1,087 posted on 06/02/2003 3:16:05 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: Sloth; Cvengr
Thank you for your resent answers. I have a question for you now. Notice the current FR poll question:

Question ...

Do you think Roe vs Wade should be overturned?

Yes
420 votes - 83%

No
62 votes - 12%

Undecided
19 votes - 3%

501 votes total; you voted "Yes"

When you "think" this (or think "No," perish the thought) at its essence, do you really need to have it in words or deal in some other way with symbols?

1,088 posted on 06/02/2003 3:24:11 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: tortoise
(Noting that "infinite" minds create all sorts of consequences pretty much by definition that contradict a lot of doctrine. Much safer to say "extremely large but finite" rather than "infinite", technically speaking, or you end up in la-la land.)

Could it not be that man's finiteness of consciousness simply does not have a way of considering infinity of mind? (This, regardless of all the givens which we would need to attribute to the creator of all the givens we know of.)

1,089 posted on 06/02/2003 7:31:18 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: betty boop
Thank you oh so very much for the encouragement and especially for the joyful testimony! Praise God!!!
1,090 posted on 06/02/2003 8:30:32 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: unspun
LOLOL! Thanks for the chuckle! Hugs!
1,091 posted on 06/02/2003 8:32:51 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: unspun
"Well, DF, thank you, but do you see no conflict at all between the above and your earlier post, below? How about when you think about "guilt" or "goodness" or "beauty?" Do you always think of these with words? And if you think by managing symbols, is the thought what is managing symbols, or is it the regardings of what you believe they mean? If the latter, at least at a certain level, isn't this a more essential "thing" to be called a thought? "

I certainly see no conflict between the two. I sometimes think in language. I sometimes think without language. When I think without language, I think I think with other symbols - sometimes external symbols and sometimes with ones that I create. I think. So no, I do not see inconsistencies in my two posts.

You raise a seperate question - do events or situations focus what it is I think about, or shape what it is I conclude? Clearly. If I am in pain, I tend to think about that, and how to relieve it. If I feel guilty, then I try to relieve that pain. However, I do not believe that these things are intelligence - they are factors external to intelligence that thought is called on to think about.

As a early teen (and I admit I was a strange child), I went through a period where I saw that emotions (e.g. desires for mating, marriage, etc.) were not intelligence, and that I should be able to rise above them - out-think them if you will. By 16, I had come up with a comprimise - I concluded that "happiness" is captive to these emotions, and I would need to deal with them in one way or another if I wanted to achieve a level of happiness. I worried that this was a cop-out, but I think I made the right decision.

You imply another question that is not directly related to my understanding of the original question, but interesting. Pain, mating desires, etc. are fairly easily explained by Darwin concepts. Guilt, goodness, and beauty could (and have) been cynically placed in the same category, but the arguement are less strong.

When I was 16 or 17 I worried alot about pre-destination. In my mind there are good arguements for it (although recent physics gives me some possible outs). I finally decided that if everything was pre-destined then nothing mattered anyway, so I decided to live life as if it were not true. I take the same approach to the questions of guilt, goodness, beauty. I decide that they are not strictly Darwin at work because life would not much worth living, if ture.
1,092 posted on 06/02/2003 8:40:19 PM PDT by DougF
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To: unspun
Good question.

When I read the question, I read and comprehend the sentence in English language.

My answer or thought process isn't immediately reportable in the same language, but that doesn't mean I've identified a lack of language.

In the same fashion that higher level mutivariate mathematics might address certain questions in terms f functions, or functions of functions,...or functionals if you will, then their may be higher abstractions which we naturally process under the category of 'instinct'.

Conversely, there may also be a manifestation of faith and soul speach in the attempt to contemplate the question also called instinct, but in a visceral fashion.

The discernment of those actions aren't immediately discernible to me.
1,093 posted on 06/02/2003 9:37:52 PM PDT by Cvengr (<;^))
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl; unspun
lockeliberty, I guess it's best to take Mechtild for a role model, and simply "let go," or perhaps better put, "let be."

Yes, I think that's correct in a sense. But we must also keep in mind "Thy Kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." The danger, it seems, is that we veer off either too far toward the existential or the cultural. Achieving that balance is the tricky part.

BTW, I've been lurking you folk's posts for some time and find them to be of the highest quality on this forum although much of it goes way over my head. Thanks.

1,094 posted on 06/03/2003 6:45:30 AM PDT by lockeliberty
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To: lockeliberty
"Thy Kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

Thanks so much for your kind words, lockeliberty.

When things look bleak, and I worry or fret about the future (mine, a loved one's, the country's, "the culture's," etc.), I recall this line from the Lord's Prayer. Instantly, everything is put back into true perspective for me. For truly it seems to me that fidelity to God's Word and will is the imperishable source of true order of the soul, and of everything else in society and the natural world. We humans may try to evade it; but in the long run, the effects of that evasion everlastingly perish in time. Cultures rise, cultures fall; nations come and go; only God's Truth is imperishable. It is "the Rock" on which we all stand, whether we acknowledge Him or not.

1,095 posted on 06/03/2003 7:32:02 AM PDT by betty boop (When people accept futility and the absurd as normal, the culture is decadent. -- Jacques Barzun)
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To: lockeliberty; betty boop
Thank you so very much for the kudos and encouragements!

Indeed, God's will surpasses all; knowing that He attends gives us "the peace of God, which passeth all understanding" and keeps "our hearts and minds through Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:6-7)

Hugs!!!

1,096 posted on 06/03/2003 9:51:59 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop
Thank you for the link to Eckhardt's thought. I am finding it interesting.
1,097 posted on 06/03/2003 9:57:38 AM PDT by Phaedrus
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To: unspun
Could it not be that man's finiteness of consciousness simply does not have a way of considering infinity of mind?

No, there are clear and precise consequences when you swap out finite numbers with even the simplest countable infinities. Serious qualitative differences. Most people have not considered the consequences of this, but they are quite easy to grasp as such things go and aren't too esoteric.

When most people use "infinite mind", their concept of it is almost metaphorical and very obviously that of an ELBF*** mind in actuality because they ascribe properties to it that can only be true if the mind is finite. If you actually assert an infinite mind for God, and grok what that truly means, the consequence is that it radically changes most people's perceptions of the properties of God and their relationship to God. This is what I was talking about. Most people frame their conception of God and their relationship to God within the implicit context of an extremely large finite entity.

An issue is that there is a fair portion of Christian doctrine that implicitly assumes that God has an ELBF mind. If you assert an infinite mind of God as axiomatic, some aspects of common Christian doctrine become simply wrong, which is what I meant when I said "infinite mind" contradicts a lot of doctrine. If one makes this assertion as a Christian, one has to be willing to convert a lot of sacred cows into hamburger. Hence why it is safer to assert an ELBF God: it maintains the status quo doctrine-wise for the most part, and does not place any signficant limits on the capabilities of God for any practical purposes.

***("ELBF" is a common acronym for the idea of finite numbers that are so large that they seem effectively "infinite" to the human mind even though they technically are not. Extremely Large But Finite.)

1,098 posted on 06/03/2003 10:01:09 AM PDT by tortoise
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To: tortoise; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; Phaedrus; Dataman; Rachumlakenschlaff
An issue is that there is a fair portion of Christian doctrine that implicitly assumes that God has an ELBF mind. If you assert an infinite mind of God as axiomatic, some aspects of common Christian doctrine become simply wrong, which is what I meant when I said "infinite mind" contradicts a lot of doctrine. If one makes this assertion as a Christian, one has to be willing to convert a lot of sacred cows into hamburger. Hence why it is safer to assert an ELBF God: it maintains the status quo doctrine-wise for the most part, and does not place any signficant limits on the capabilities of God for any practical purposes.

Interesting positing, tort. Let me ping a few of our fans of mechanics quantum about this, too.

I've tended to assume that God is the transcendent all, who by his choice and integrity has given meaning to anything in his desires, including what we may understand as either finite or infinite. Also, the ability for meaning to mean something to those who regard it. Also the ability to regard. IOW meaning to us has any meaning at all because it has meaning to him and he has allowed it to be regarded by us. That would include any and all our operands and operations. So I don't think we can go about conceiving of the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. through the special Y'shura by avoiding what to us seem paradoxes, no matter how good Ezekiel or John are with their rulers.

If you'd enjoy it, please relate some kind of sampling of the paradoxes you are thinking of. That would be fun to consider.

1,099 posted on 06/03/2003 10:36:26 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: unspun
Y'shura... Y'shua... but it's the thought that counts.
1,100 posted on 06/03/2003 10:38:29 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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