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The Absurdity of 'Thinking in Language'
the author's site ^ | 1972 | Dallas Willard

Posted on 05/23/2003 3:59:51 PM PDT by unspun

The Absurdity of 'Thinking in Language'
This paper has been read to the University of Southern California philosophy group and the Boston 1972 meeting of the American Philosophical Association, as well as to the Houston meeting of the Southwestern Philosophical Society. Appeared in The Southwestern Journal of Philosophy, IV(1973), pp. 125-132. Numbers in "<>" refer to this journal.

Among the principal assumptions of major portions of philosophy in recent decades have been: (1) That philosophy somehow consists of (some sort of) logic, and (2) that logic is a study of and theory about (some sort of) language. There, of course, follows from these a third assumption: (3) That philosophy is a study of and theory about (some sort of) language--though this implication should not be taken as representing any phase of the historical development of recent philosophizing. Instead of listing these three points as assumptions, it would probably be more correct to regard them as categories or complexes of assumptions; or perhaps, more vaguely still, as 'tendencies' or proclivities of recent philosophical thinking. But precision of these points need not be put in issue here, as this paper does not seek any large-scale resolution of the problem area in question.

The aim here is to examine only one proposition which plays a role in the clearly existent tendencies referred to: Namely, the proposition that we think in or with language. I hope to show, first, that we do not always think in or with language; and then, second, that the very conception of thinking in or with language involves an absurdity. What implications this has for broader philosophical assumptions or tendencies will not be dealt with here, though the implications in question seem to me to be extremely important ones.

That human beings think in language is explicitly stated in such diverse places as ordinary newspapers, the more sophisticated popular magazines and journals, and serious discourse in the humanities and the social sciences, as well as in the technical writings of philosophers. To prove this broad range of consensus would be idle; but, in order to have the philosophical context clearly before us, we may give a few brief quotations. <126> 

     (1) Man, like every living creature, thinks unceasingly, but does not know it: the thinking which becomes conscious of itself is only the smallest part thereof. And, we may say, the worst part:--for this conscious thinking alone is done in words, that is to say, in the symbols for communication, by means of which the origin of consciousness is revealed. (Nietzsche, Joyful Wisdom, sub-sec. # 354)

     (2) Let no one be contemptuous of symbols! A good deal depends upon a practical selection of them. Furthermore, their value is not diminished by the fact that after much practice, we no longer really need to call forth a symbol, we do not need to speak out loud in order to think. The fact remains that we think in words or, when not in words, then in mathematical or other symbols. (Frege, Mind, Vol. 73, p. 156)

     (3) It is misleading then to talk of thinking as of a 'mental activity'. We may say that thinking is essentially the activity of operating with signs. This activity is performed by the hand, when we think by writing; by the mouth and larynx, when we think by speaking; and if we think by imagining signs or pictures, I can give you no agent that thinks. If then you say that in such cases the mind thinks, I would only draw your attention to the fact that you are using a metaphor, that here the mind is an agent in a different sense from that in which the hand can be said to be an agent in writing. (Wittgenstein, Blue Book, pp. 6-7)

     (4) ... The woof and warp of all thought and all research is symbols, and the life of thought and science is the life inherent in symbols; so that it is wrong to say that a good language is important to good thought, merely; for it is of the essence of it. (C. S. Peirce, Collected Papers, II, p. 129)

     (5) Words only matter because words are what we think with. (H. H. Price, Aristotelian Society, Suppl. Vol. XIX, p. 7)

     (6) Theorizing is an activity which most people can and normally do conduct in silence. They articulate in sentences the theories that they construct, but they do not most of the time speak these sentences out loud. They say them to themselves.... Much of our ordinary thinking is conducted in internal monologue or silent soliloquy, usually accompanied by an internal cinematograph-show of visual imagery.... This trick of talking to oneself in silence is acquired neither quickly nor without effort.... (Ryle, Concept of Mind, p. 27. See also pp. 282-83 and 296-97) <127>

     (7)This helps to elucidate the well-known difficulty of thinking without words. Certain kinds of thinking are pieces of intelligent talking to oneself. Consider the way in which I 'thinkingly' wrote the last sentence. I can no more do the 'thinking' part without the talking (or writing) part than a man can do the being graceful part of walking apart from the walking (or some equivalent activity). (J.J.C. Smart, Philosophy and Scientific Realism, p. 89)

These quotations will suffice to establish the context within which philosophers speak of thinking in language (or with language). Many other quotations could be added from the literature.1 It is not assumed here that the persons quoted all occupy the same position with reference to the relationship between thought and language. Yet it would be interesting to see what any of these thinkers, or others who suppose that human beings think in language, could save of their position from the critique which follows.

Uneasiness about the conception of thinking in or with language has been expressed by a number of writers, but only over limited aspects of it.2 Here we shall consider arguments which purport to call the conception into question entirely and in principle. First, consider a reason for rejecting the view that we always think in language. It consists in the fact that thinking often occurs without the production, manipulation, or perception of sense-perceptible signs, without which there is no use of language. Such occurrences often provoke offers of 'A penny for your thoughts.'

Thinking: Whatever we may decide to call them, and however it is that we are conscious of them, there are intentional states of persons, more or less fixed or fleeting, which do not require for their obtaining that what they are about or of be perceived by, or be impinging causally upon, the person involved. In order to think of3 Henry the Eighth, <128> of the first auto one owned, of the Pythagorean theorem, or of the Mississippi River, it is not required that they should disturb my nervous system. Such states (t-states) of persons are often called 'thoughts', especially in contrast with 'perceptions', and being in such a state is one of the things more commonly called 'thinking'. One no more needs to be going through a change of such states in order to be thinking, than he needs to be changing his bodily position in order to be sitting or lying or sleeping. Rarely if ever--as is alleged in the case of mystic contemplation--are these t-states unchanging. Usually they flow, at varying rates, intermingled with person states of many sorts, governed by such transitional structures as inference, goal orientation, objective structures given in perception or in other ways, and elemental association of 'ideas', among others. In what follows, we shall use 'thinking' to cover both the single t-state and the flow of such states, without regard to how intermingled with other person states.

Language: Sense perceptible signs or symbols are an essential constituent of language. It is always false to say that language is present or in use where no signs are present or in use. And, whatever else a sign may be, it is something which is apprehendable via its sensible qualities. That is, it is something which can be either seen, heard, felt, tasted or smelled. Moreover, the use of language requires some level of actual sensuous apprehension of the signs which are in use on the occasion. (Confusion or distortion of this sensuous feedback can render a subject incapable of writing or speaking; and, of course, without perception of the sign-sequences emitted, one cannot understand the person emitting language.)

Now cases can be produced almost at will where thinking occurs without language being present or in use. This, of course, is something which everyone--including the proponent of thinking-in-language--very well knows. It is these cases which, together with the assumption that we always think in language, create what in (7) was called "the well-known difficulty of thinking without words." If, as in (3), "thinking is essentially the activity of operating with signs," then when there are no signs--and when, consequently, the means by which we produce, manipulate, or perceive signs are not functioning--we do have a difficulty. In fact, a difficulty so severe that it amounts to a proof that thinking is not essentially the activity of operating with signs, and that often we think entirely without language. One cannot operate with signs where there are no signs. <129> 

As the above quotations indicate, the most common move made to save 'thinking in language' at this point is the shift to 'silent soliloquy,' as in (6), or to 'pieces of intelligent talking to oneself,' as in (7). These are latter-day shades of John Watson's 'sub-vocal language.' Of course one can talk to oneself or write to onself. But talking and writing to oneself require the production and perception of sensuous signs just as much as talking and writing to another. The realization of this is what drives the thinking-in-language advocate to silent soliloquy or to nonvocal speaking--the written counterpart of which would be invisible writing. That is, they are driven to flat absurdities. A silent soliloquy--that is, silent speaking--is precisely on a par with a silent trumpet solo, for example, or silent thunder. A poet may say:

       Heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard

            Are sweeter; therefore, ye soft pipes, play on;

       Not to the sensual ear, but, more endeared,

            Pipe to the spirit ditties of no tone;...

               (Keats, Ode to a Grecian Urn)

But there are in fact no unhearable melodies, no ears other than the "sensual," no ditties of no tone.

What those who speak of silent discourse have in mind is, no doubt, the fact that interlaced with our thinking of or about things is a great deal of imaging of linguistic entities. (This is especially true of academics or intellectuals in general, because of their great concern with expression of thought. Probably an adequate phenomenology of thinking would exhibit great contrast between them and other classes of persons precisely at the relation between thinking and degree of activity in imaging linguistic entities and events.) But imaging a word is not using a word, any more than imaging a horse is using a horse. Moreover, imaging a word, phrase, or sentence is not producing or perceiving a word, phrase, or sentence any more than imaging a horse is producing or perceiving--or otherwise 'having'--a horse. To image a linguistic sequence is not to have it in a special sort of place--the mind--nor is it to have a special sort of linguistic sequence. To image is to exemplify a certain sort of thinking or intentional state, and a sort which does have interesting relationships with other kinds of thinking. But there is no reason at all to suppose that all kinds of thinking necessarily involve or are accompanied by this kind of thinking (imaging) directed upon language segments. And if there were, it still would not follow that all thinking requires language, since this kind of thinking about language segments is not itself language at all. Nor does it require any <130> language present in order for it to come to pass, since intentional inexistence applies to mental events when language segments are the objects, as well as when sticks and stones and animals are.

Having considered a reason for rejecting the proposition that human beings always think in language, let us now consider whether they ever do. In fact, the difficulty is not, as Smart (above) and others have thought, in seeing how one can think without language, but in seeing how one would think with it. Thinking with or in language must consist in doing something with symbols, and so necessarily involves doing something to them--e.g., producing, altering, or perceiving them. If we would do something with the knife (e.g., cut the bread), we must do something to the knife, (e.g., clasp it in our hands). But, as we have seen, thinking occurs where nothing at all is being done to or with signs, there not being any signs in these cases. The power or act of having or changing t-states--that is, the power or act of thinking--is, then, not a power or act of having or altering linguistic symbols. (It is not, in fact, a power of doing anything with or in anything at all. The profound difference in kinds of powers and acts involved here is what Wittgenstein calls attention to in the last sentence of (3) above.) Thought is, of course, practical, in that it exercises an influence upon, or makes some difference in, the world of sense particulars. But it alone is not capable of acting with the sorts of particulars used in linguistic behavior as its immediate instruments. It is just this incapacity which makes it impossible for the advocates of thinking-in-language to give any account of the mechanisms or the 'how' by which the words in which we, allegedly, think are produced, manipulated, and gotten rid of--though they must be produced (or stored and hauled out), manipulated, and, in some sense, gotten rid of, if we are to think with and in them as our tools or instruments.

Merely to ask the question of how, in detail, this is done in the course of thinking reveals, I believe, the absurdity of 'thinking in language'. Mere thinking can do nothing to signs which might be used in a language, and hence it can do nothing with such signs, or in the act of modifying the conditions of such signs. It is absurd to suppose that one can do x with y without in some way bringing about a change in the condition, state, relations, or properties of y. It is this and only this that I put by saying that it is absurd to suppose that one can do something with y while doing nothing to y.

If it is replied that, of course, the mind or thought does not do these things, but that when we write, speak, hear, see, and otherwise relate to actual words in the actual employment of language, we then are thinking, with bodily parts managing the symbols involved, then it <131> must be pointed out that, while we may indeed also be thinking in such cases, we are not simply thinking. The total event here, to which language certainly is essential, is not thinking. Correct use of language can even occur, as has been pointed out by Wittgenstein, without the occurrence of any peculiarly relevant t-states. On the other hand, thinking does occur without the use of hands, mouth, ears, eyes, fingers in any appropriately relevant manner. Hence, what can only occur by the use of these is not the same as thinking, though it may somehow involve or influence thinking.

Smart remarks in (7) that, when he thinkingly wrote the sentence, "Certain kinds of thinking are pieces of intelligent talking to oneself," he could "no more do the 'thinking' part without the talking (or writing) part than a man can do the being graceful part of walking apart from the walking." This may be true of thinkingly writing the sentence (whatever that means). But it does not follow that one cannot think that certain kinds of thinking are pieces of intelligent talking to oneself without the use of language, though Smart clearly thinks that it does. Of course one cannot thinkingly write without writing. But that is nothing to the point of whether or not we can and do think with or without words. Also, the comparison to graceful walking is not apt. We do, as above shown, sometimes think without words or symbols, while no cases of grace without behavior are known.

Now it is very certainly true that some processes clearly involving thinking as described above depend for their occurrence upon linguistic behavior and the sensible signs which it involves, for example, the processes of learning algebra or the history of the Basques, or learning how to counsel emotionally upset persons. But it is to be noted that these are not themselves processes of thinking, but rather are extremely complex processes involving all kinds of events and entities other than language and other than thinking--e.g., feelings, perceptions, buildings, other persons, days and nights, books, and so on. None of these processes is a process of thinking; and for that reason alone it is invalid to infer from them that thinking is linguistic behavior, or that one thinks with language. What is essential to things or events of a certain sort must be shown essential to them taken by themselves, not in combination with many other things. With reference to the involved processes in question, it might be more appropriate (though it would still be wrong) to say--as some have said in recent years--that we live in or with language. Nevertheless, it is certain that some kind of dependence relation--probably similar to feedback mechanisms--exists between linguistic processes and their sensuous signs, on the one hand, and certain sequences of t-states on the other. What, exactly, this relation <132> of dependence is continues to be veiled by, among other things, a priori assumptions about what thinking and language must be and do. One such assumption is that which holds thinking essentially to be an operation with signs or symbols, or doing something with--or in--linguistic processes or entities.

The view that we (necessarily) think without language is, today, regarded as so outlandish as not to merit serious consideration. But this is not due to a lack of arguments to support it. My object here has been to focus upon certain arguments purporting to show the absurdity of thinking in language. The main points in these arguments are: Thinking does occur without any accompanying language whatsoever, and thus shows itself not to be a power or act of managing linguistic signs, once it is clear what such a sign is. Thinking, as distinct from behavioral processes involving it, can do nothing to signs or symbols, and hence can do nothing with them.


NOTES

  1. See for example, Ramsey's Foundations of Mathematics, p. 138, and Kneale's remarks in Feigl and Sellars, Readings in Philosophical Analysis, p. 42. Return to text.
  2. See S. Morris Engel, "Thought and Language," Dialogue, Vol. 3, 1964, 160-170; Jerome Shaffer, "Recent Work on the Mind-Body Problem," American Philosophical Quarterly, Vol. II, 1965, esp. p. 83; R. Kirk, "Rationality Without Language," Mind, 1967, pp. 369-368; G. Ryle, "A Puzzling Element in the Notion of Thinking," in Studies in the Philosophy of Thought and Action, P. F. Strawson, ed., (Oxford: 1968), pp. 7-23. Interesting remarks on the issues here are also found in Bruce Aune's Knowledge, Mind and Nature, chap. VIII and H. H. Price's Thinking and Experience, Chap. X.  See also Wm. James, "Thought Before Language; A Deaf Mute's Recollections," Mind, Vol. I, 1892; and see Wittgenstein's comments on this in Philosophical Investigations, No. 342. Return to text.
  3. I use only think here, for simplicity; but think that and other structures of such intentional states (and sequences thereof) might also be mentioned. Specifically, I would also wish to hold that instances of thinking that, in the sense of inferring or puzzling something out, occur in the absence of appropriate linguistic entities or activities. Return to text.


TOPICS: Philosophy
KEYWORDS: consciousness; dallaswillard; epistemology; faithandphilosophy; godsgravesglyphs; intelligence; intention; intentionality; language; linguistics; metaphysics; mind; ontology; psychology; semantics; semasiology; semiotics; sense; thinking; thought; willard
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Having read the link, tell us what you think:

1. Do we always think in language?

2. Do we ever think in language?

1,001 posted on 05/30/2003 9:05:19 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: r9etb; Alamo-Girl; unspun; cornelis; Phaedrus; All
Thanks r9etb!

But this silly twit (that would be me) couldn't even get the author's name right on one of my cites. It's Stephen Barr, not Bell!

1,002 posted on 05/30/2003 9:29:55 AM PDT by betty boop (When people accept futility and the absurd as normal, the culture is decadent. -- Jacques Barzun)
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To: unspun
Thank you so much for your understanding and encouragements! Hugs!!!

Indeed, John is the first “wallower” that comes to mind (though Anna might have been) – but in either case, they were neither blind nor mute. I am especially grateful for the book of John and Revelation! Praise God!!!

And I agree that all our involvements are to be spiritual involvements and all done while very knowingly communing in our Lord and He in we.

1,003 posted on 05/30/2003 9:59:11 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: r9etb
"Natural law and natural rights seem plain when one argues about fundamentals;
for instance, that every human being has a right to live unmolested,

that government is needed to ensure that right, and that man-made laws must serve and not defeat natural rights.

If any civil law does work against a natural right, the law of nature warrants disobeying the law and even overthrowing the government."

"These reasonings are familiar to those who remember the preamble to the Declaration of Independence…."

_____________________________________


Great quotes Betty, thanks.. To bad that many here at FR cannot understand their ramifications, when it comes to todays constitutional realities.
937 tpaine


r9etb wrote:

"Too bad that you think we cannot understand."


No 'thinking' is necessary.. Every time I argue ~for~ Cokes positions as above, some crazed anti-libertarian attacks his principles, [& those of our constitution] -- with both barrels blazing..
The record in over five years on this forum is irrefutable..
Many here only pay lip service to Cokes fundamentals of a free republic.
1,004 posted on 05/30/2003 10:05:30 AM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be a 'decent human being', but me flesh is weak.,)
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To: Kudsman
Thank you oh so very much for the encouragements! Hugs!!!

Your use of the harp metaphor is verrrry endearing to me for several reasons. First, when I am worshiping most exhaustively there is always a melody in the background. Second, I use the term "ring true" to describe how some statements outside the Word have impacted my spirit.

For instance, there was this little old gray-haired lady who mentioned with reference to a sermon on Peter's failed attempt to walk out to Christ on the water: "sinking wasn't his job."

That observation rang true when she said it and it'll always be with me. It is also a good example of the title of this thread: The absurdity of thinking in language.

Hugs!!!

1,005 posted on 05/30/2003 10:10:04 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
Acceding further to your feign at dualism ;-) I read a book by a pentecostal brother named Jesse Duplantis, where he purports to be taken in come kind of vision into Heaven (or a view depicting Heaven). There he found that some lived in the heart of the city and others in the outlying country. As I recall, he wondered at this, but was told that those on the outskirts were no less valued (nor I hope less valuing!) but simply preferred to live there.

I spent some extended periods in church buildings as a young boy and I confess a bit of unease of some kind, when I've read David's longing to do nothing more than hang out in the Temple. ;-`

Thankfully, where we're going, we will need no Temple nor sun, for the Lord will be our Light and our Temple -- wherever we are.
1,006 posted on 05/30/2003 10:13:03 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: Alamo-Girl
It was wonderful to be in those church buildings with my father, but I enjoyed fishing trips with him much more.
1,007 posted on 05/30/2003 10:28:53 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: tpaine
The record in over five years on this forum is irrefutable..

Sigh. You appear never to have understood that many of the discussions have not been about the Constitution at all, but about the logical basis of libertarian and objectivist thought, and also the philosophical (and practical) basis of constitutional government.

You continue in this thread with the silly accusation that people like me do not understand, much less agree with, the principles embodied in the Constitution. That's false, of course.

Often there are those who take issue with wrong-headed libertarian theories. (The Constitution allows that, BTW.) It's quite true that in many instances, libertarians say things that are flat-out ridiculous. If pointing them out is "crazed anti-libertarianism," then I think it must be a good thing.

"The record in over five years on this forum," is that when you are challenged, your response is almost without fail to resort to insults -- which leads one to believe that you cannot defend your position at all, and possibly that you do not even understand the position you're defending.

Your #1004 on this thread is a perfect example.

Let me suggest something to you: stop clinging like a barnacle to your ideology. Step back and look at your assumptions. It will help you to deal rationally with the problems in your position -- of which there are many. You'll be happier if you do that, and we'll be more likely to take you seriously.

1,008 posted on 05/30/2003 10:57:51 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: unspun
Thank you so very much for your post!

I have only been to a couple of charismatic services in my entire life though one leg of my family is in that branch of the family of believers. They would probably recognize the name you mentioned, but I didn’t – I did however look him up on the web: Jesse Duplantis Ministries

This is a case in point of the aversion I spoke of earlier. It doesn’t matter how true to the Word, or how good the deeds, I have an aversion to any ministry where the founder’s name is part of the title. It’s just a personal thing, but to each his own.

Back to Jesse’s vision. You know that I have “night travels” – moments of intense worship when I am raptured up and freely loving, moving and observing His wonders. Never has there been verbal communication in my travels, though I have heard testimony of such from betty boop. There is always music however.

In some of those travels, I feel like I am at (or perhaps am) one of many pillars in a very large expanse with many others. It is more like light than architecture. It is always a moment of deep reverence and “visual” brightness. So perhaps I was traveling to a similar “place” as Jesse.

The other thing I wanted to mention was the kingdom of God, the new heaven and earth. When the night travel background melody changes to the Lord’s prayer in this deep worship, at the “thy kingdom come” and “Thine is the kingdom” verses --- I “see” a marvelous panorama. It is really beyond language to describe, but I will make a feeble attempt.

I “see” an immaculate whiteness but with geometric form (which I don’t think even Escher could draw) at its inception but which expands and rapidly supplants everything else. I’ve never seen a lake “turn over” up here, but it might be a decent metaphor for the movement.

An important contrast though - when the verse moves to “and the power and the glory, forever, amen” all of that whiteness is infused with brilliance. This part feels like what you said: we will need no Temple nor sun, for the Lord will be our Light and our Temple -- wherever we are.

I know I’m doing a lousy job of describing this. There is so much more to it than language can handle, but then again that is what this thread is all about.

1,009 posted on 05/30/2003 11:03:09 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; unspun
And I agree that all our involvements are to be spiritual involvements and all done while very knowingly communing in our Lord and He in we.

Make that three votes. Its in the doing that I have been and continue to be tripped up. Praise God for the Sacrement of Reconciliation that allows me to heal, gain wisdom, and provide the courage to correct my misdeeds (thoughts). Love.

1,010 posted on 05/30/2003 11:46:30 AM PDT by Kudsman (LETS GET IT ON!!! The price of freedom is vigilance. Tyranny is free of charge.)
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To: Kudsman
Thank you so much for your post and agreement! Indeed, Praise God for allowing reconciliation for our misdeed!!!
1,011 posted on 05/30/2003 11:50:19 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: unspun
but I enjoyed fishing trips with him much more.Are you sure you're not telepathic in some way that fifteendogs is trying to get us to understand? After all it, (telepathic), is just a word in a language.
1,012 posted on 05/30/2003 11:51:11 AM PDT by Kudsman (LETS GET IT ON!!! The price of freedom is vigilance. Tyranny is free of charge.)
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To: Kudsman
What u mean, Kuds man?
1,013 posted on 05/30/2003 11:57:54 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: r9etb
Great quotes Betty, thanks.. To bad that many here at FR cannot understand their ramifications, when it comes to todays constitutional realities.
937 tpaine

r9etb wrote: "Too bad that you think we cannot understand."

No 'thinking' is necessary.. Every time I argue ~for~ Cokes positions as above, some crazed anti-libertarian attacks his principles, [& those of our constitution] -- with both barrels blazing..
The record in over five years on this forum is irrefutable..
Many here only pay lip service to Cokes fundamentals of a free republic.
1,004

Sigh. You appear never to have understood that many of the discussions have not been about the Constitution at all, but about the logical basis of libertarian and objectivist thought, and also the philosophical (and practical) basis of constitutional government.

That's simply not true, 'sigh'.. My record of 'understanding' discussions is here for anyone to verify.

You continue in this thread with the silly accusation that people like me do not understand, much less agree with, the principles embodied in the Constitution. That's false, of course.

Weird.. -- You are styling yourself as a crazed anti-libertarian? -- If the shoe fits, pal, have at it..

Often there are those who take issue with wrong-headed libertarian theories. (The Constitution allows that, BTW.) It's quite true that in many instances, libertarians say things that are flat-out ridiculous. If pointing them out is "crazed anti-libertarianism," then I think it must be a good thing.

I just pointed some ridiculous aspects of libertarian notions on eminant domain to some of my peers yesterday. -- It was good. Thanks.

"The record in over five years on this forum," is that when you are challenged, your response is almost without fail to resort to insults -- which leads one to believe that you cannot defend your position at all, and possibly that you do not even understand the position you're defending.

'r9etb says', making a personal insult to prove his point that I make them.. - As indeed I do, just like everyone else around here..

Your #1004 on this thread is a perfect example.

My #1004 on this thread is ~not~ a perfect example. It is not a personal insult to any one person. 'Crazed' anti-libertarians are a fact of life here at FR. You ally yourself with them with your own words, not mine..

Let me suggest something to you: stop clinging like a barnacle to your ideology. Step back and look at your assumptions. It will help you to deal rationally with the problems in your position -- of which there are many. You'll be happier if you do that, and we'll be more likely to take you seriously.

Why should I take your advice? You have quite irrationally attacked my position here, virtually out of the blue..

1,014 posted on 05/30/2003 11:59:37 AM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be a 'decent human being', but me flesh is weak.,)
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To: tpaine
Another suggestion for you, tippy: when you find yourself in a hole, it's best to stop digging.
1,015 posted on 05/30/2003 12:01:53 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: r9etb
Whatever..

Skip away now 'r9etby', imagining you have made some point..
1,016 posted on 05/30/2003 12:06:40 PM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be a 'decent human being', but me flesh is weak.,)
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; Kudsman; tortoise; r9etb; Consort; Cvengr; cornelis; Anybody; No!; Bodie; ..
There is so much more to it than language can handle, but then again that is what this thread is all about.

I'm going to be pretty computer-free most of the weekend. Others may be vacating too. But I don't suppose you want to write a (three paragraph?) synopsis of Dr. Willard's ponderings and posits? (W-w/o additional comments, separate or made distinct?)

I'd like to take a crack too, but I think this would be a good case for the testimony of multiple witnesses.

1,017 posted on 05/30/2003 12:33:38 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: tpaine
Who loves ya baby?
1,018 posted on 05/30/2003 12:41:14 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: unspun
but I enjoyed fishing trips with him much more

I don't know quite how to descibe it. May be Deja-vu for LOABW. I was thinking it. You posted it. I read it. I don't know. I just got that "feeling" again.

1,019 posted on 05/30/2003 12:53:10 PM PDT by Kudsman (LETS GET IT ON!!! The price of freedom is vigilance. Tyranny is free of charge.)
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To: Kudsman; Alamo-Girl
I don't know, but that's a prit' near "archetypical" experience for us boys, fishing with Dad. BTW, I'm not an avid reader of the aforementioned Carl Jung, someone whose posits are certainly of the subject matter of this thread, but....
....and well, you know.

BTW, LOABW? Left on a boat, wet? (Maybe that was Peter, for awhile.)
1,020 posted on 05/30/2003 1:07:00 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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